From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sat Oct 06 16:00:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 6 Oct 2001 22:57:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 10314 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2001 22:57:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 6 Oct 2001 22:57:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.141) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2001 23:00:12 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:12 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.35 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 23:00:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.35] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] "knowledge as to who saw who" readings Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 23:00:12 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2001 23:00:12.0868 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7C51840:01C14EBA] From: "Jorge Llambias" la and cusku di'e >Context: Bill saw Anne and Anne saw Bill and nobody else saw anybody >else. > >Scenarios: >1. John knows Bill saw Anne. >2. John knows Bill saw Anne and Anne saw Bill. >3. John knows Bill saw Anne and Anne saw Bill and nobody else saw anybody > else. > >EC1. da zo'u la djon djuno tu'odu'u da cmima de poi ke'a -extension > tu'odu'u ce'u viska ce'u > >EC2. ro da poi ke'a cmima de poi ke'a -extension tu'odu'u ce'u viska ce'u > zo'u la djon djuno tu'odu'u da cmima de > >EC3. da zo'u la djon djuno tu'odu'u da -extension tu'odu'u ce'u viska ce'u > > >Question 1: Are there any (relevant) defects or problems with (1-3)? Does {da de zo'u la djon djuno tu'odu'u da cmima de} require John to understand what membership means? If it does (and I think it has to), then this would be a defect, because "John knows who saw who" does not require John to know what it means to be a member. >Question 2: How does Jorge's lojban rendering of the set-of-answers >analysis distinguish (1-3)? Maybe: SA1. la djon djuno lo du'u makau viska makau SA2. la djon djuno re du'u makau viska makau The third I was going to do as: SA3a. la djon djuno le du'u makau viska makau (i.e. every one of the relevant answers) but that wouldn't say that John knows that they are all the relevant answers there are. Now this: SA3b. la djon djuno tu'odu'u ri djuno ro jetnu du'u makau viska makau might solve that problem, but it is hopelessly heavy. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp