From jjllambias@hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 20:33:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 11 Oct 2001 03:33:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 53530 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2001 03:33:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2001 03:33:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.198) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2001 03:33:58 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:33:58 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.47 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:33:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.47] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] "knowledge as to who saw who" readings Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:33:57 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2001 03:33:58.0024 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F940080:01C15205] From: "Jorge Llambias" la pycyn cusku di'e >(is this where knowing a=b and Fa means you >ought to know Fb?). You shouldn't be able to get away with this type of bamboozzlement in Lojban. Knowing that something is equal to itself only requires that you understand the meaning of 'equal'. Knowing that what is referred to by 'a' is the same as what is referred to by 'b' is a different issue, and of course requires to know what 'a' refers to and what 'b' refers to. {la djan djuno le du'u ko'a du ko'e} should not require at all that John knows who is being referred to by the prosumti {ko'a} and {ko'e}, which is something that only concerns the speaker and the listener. It is something that John can know only if {ko'a du ko'e} is true and all it requires is that John understands the meaning of identity. If he does understand it, then of course he knows that anything is equal (=) to itself. Unfortunately we probably won't succeed in avoiding the bamboozzlement in Lojban. Indeed, apparently we can't even agree that {le broda} has to be a meaningful description for the speaker and listener only, not for the knower. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp