From jjllambias@hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 21:12:50 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0); 12 Oct 2001 04:12:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 67735 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2001 04:12:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Oct 2001 04:12:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.147) by mta1 with SMTP; 12 Oct 2001 04:12:50 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:12:50 -0700 Received: from 200.69.11.31 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 04:12:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.69.11.31] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] "knowledge as to who saw who" readings Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 04:12:49 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2001 04:12:50.0195 (UTC) FILETIME=[2812CE30:01C152D4] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 la pycyn cusku di'e >I don't understand what bamboozlement you are talking about. 'a=b' tells us >that the thing called by the name 'a' is identical with the thing called >by >the name 'b,' that is, that they are the same thing, despite their names. I think that would have to be {zo ko'a dunli zo ko'e le ka ce'u sinxa makau}. It's a claim about the references more than about the referents. >This is a significnat claim and different from the claim 'a=a', which is >totally trivial. Consider another relationship: {ko'a pendo ko'e}. In order to properly understand and evaluate that claim it is first necessary to identify the referents of {ko'a} and {ko'e}. Of course, the claim can also be used to identify the referent of {ko'a} if we already know what the referent of {ko'e} is and we know who are ko'e's friends. But this second use is accidental, it's like getting to the meaning of the sentence through a backdoor. Answering {ko'a ki'a} with {ko'a pendo ko'e} will work pragmatically, but it gives me the creeps logically. The same applies to using {ko'a du ko'e} for that purpose. >See, Frege on sense and reference "How is a=b, if true, >different from a=a?" The answer, of course, is that the two names have >different senses ("morning star", "evening star" are the traditional >examples) even though that have the same reference, and it is the senses >that >guide the selection of references, so, in another world, these two names >might attach to different things. I wish you would give Lojban examples. I know this can cause ambiguity in English, but I thought Lojban was good precisely at sorting these things out. >Identity, however, is just about reference. su'o da poi grute ku'o su'o de poi pelxu zo'u da du de For some x which is a fruit and some y which is yellow, x=y. Is that about reference? mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp