From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sat Oct 13 10:40:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 13 Oct 2001 17:40:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 46411 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2001 17:40:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 13 Oct 2001 17:40:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.64) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Oct 2001 17:40:18 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:40:18 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.40 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:40:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.40] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] translation challenge: "If today is Monday..." Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:40:17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2001 17:40:18.0069 (UTC) FILETIME=[1FAB7450:01C1540E] From: "Jorge Llambias" la xod cusku di'e > > 1. If today is Monday, then tomorrow is Tuesday. > >Well, I'm curious to see what you find wrong with ganai, gi. > >ganai le pavdei cu cabdei gi le reldei cu bavlamdei That one is true every day, but you left out half of the challenge: {ganai le pavdei cu cabdei gi le cibdei cu bavlamdei} is false on Mondays but true the rest of the week. You want the fact that it is false on Mondays to make the statement permanently false. [Aside: Any reason to invert subject and predicate? Why not {le cabdei cu pavdei}?] The only way to solve it is to make explicit the universal quantification that "if" hides in English. You can quantify over all possible worlds (ro mu'ei), then, since there will always be one in which today is Monday, that will be enough to make the second sentence always false. (You have to limit possible worlds to those in which Tuesdays always follow Mondays in order for the first one to be true.) Or you can do as John did and quantify over all days. I think this is what goes on in English, "today" really stands for "each day", in the same way that "you" stands for "each person" in generic statements like "if you put your hands on the fire, you burn yourself". That really means "for every person x, if x puts x's hands on the fire, x burns x-self". For every "today" x, if x is Monday, then "the tomorrow" of x is Tuesday. TRUE For every "today" x, if x is Monday, then "the tomorrow" of x is Wednesday. FALSE mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp