From cowan@ccil.org Sun Oct 14 16:56:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: cowan@mercury.ccil.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 14 Oct 2001 23:56:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 2132 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2001 23:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 14 Oct 2001 23:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mercury.ccil.org) (192.190.237.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Oct 2001 23:56:44 -0000 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15sv7l-0006Qo-00 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:56:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [lojban] translation challenge: "If today is Monday..." In-Reply-To: from "pycyn@aol.com" at "Oct 14, 2001 10:48:53 am" To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:56:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-eGroups-From: John Cowan From: John Cowan pycyn@aol.com scripsit: > > In other words, it seems to me that the oddity of these sentences reflects > > the fact that "today" and "tomorrow" are usually absolute in English, but > > here are being applied as relative terms. "Bavlamdei" is actually relative > > in Lojban, but is most often used (in a mildly malglico way) as absolute; > > here we get to use it in the "proper" way. > > Item 1> You didn't say "if" but "iff," which happens to be OK here, in fact, > though not what was said/asked for. Fair enough. > Item 2>"today", "tomorrow", etc. are token reflexive, i.e., get their > references dependent upon when the occurrence of the word in question is > uttered. I don't see exactly what is meant here by "relative" (other than > "token-reflexive") and "absolute." This use is perfectly normal in English > and Lojban. In English, "today" and "tomorrow" are normally token-reflexive, then, but in this sentence are used in the senses "a day" and "the successor of that day". The Lojban predicate "bavlamdei", though, in fact means "x1 is the successor-day of x2", but with an appropriately glorked x2 ends up being used as "tomorrow". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Please leave your values | Check your assumptions. In fact, at the front desk. | check your assumptions at the door. --sign in Paris hotel | --Miles Vorkosigan