From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Mon Oct 15 09:17:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 15 Oct 2001 16:17:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 81441 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2001 16:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 15 Oct 2001 16:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta2 with SMTP; 15 Oct 2001 16:17:18 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:54:21 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:27:25 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:26:58 +0100 To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] translation challenge: "If today is Monday..." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta >>> Pierre Abbat 10/15/01 03:02pm >>> #On Monday 15 October 2001 09:37, And Rosta wrote: #> We can ditch the deictics, though. If they're a redherring: #> #> A. "If Jorge had been born in Warsaw, he'd be a British citizen" #> =3D false #> #> B. "Jorge is british or not born in Warsaw" #> =3D true #> #> C. we could change A to: #> "Everyone is british or not born in Warsaw" #> =3D false # #D. If Jorge was born in Warsaw, he is a British citizen. #true, and equivalent to B. Blimey. It doesn't sound true to me. It's what I'd say instead of A if I didn't know whether Jorge was born in Warsaw. #So the problem is to express A, as opposed to D. That's a problem, but not the problem. #ganai la xorxes jbena fo la varcavas gi xy brito selgugycmi #.i ganai da'i la xorxes jbena fo la varcavas gi xy brito selgugycmi # #Is that enough, or should there be another da'i, or should the da'i be=20 #elsewhere? Surely in all these examples there's an implicit {da'i} in both=20 protasis and apodosis, because you're not claiming that the bridi is true; you're merely entertaining the idea of it being true, and indicating = how its truth is tied to the truth of the other bridi. I'd have thought that the default for all utterances is that the entire sen= tence=20 has an implicit {da'i nai}, while any subbridi within the sentence have an = implicit {da'i}. As you know, conditional clauses generally come in two modalities, one wher= e you don't know whether the clause is true, and one where you know it isn'= t true. I don't know how to express either of these in Lojban, but I don't = see how {da'i} can help. [ps I'm working from memory & remembering {da'i} as a marker of hypothetica= lity.) --And.