From phma@oltronics.net Sat Oct 27 09:47:43 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 27 Oct 2001 16:47:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 18808 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2001 16:47:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 27 Oct 2001 16:47:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO neofelis.ixazon.lan) (216.189.29.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Oct 2001 16:47:31 -0000 Received: by neofelis.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 500) id 68D7F3C671; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: phma@oltronics.net To: "Lojban@Yahoogroups. Com" Subject: Re: [lojban] a construal of lo'e & le'e Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:27:53 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0110271227530F.01291@neofelis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com From: Pierre Abbat On Saturday 27 October 2001 00:29, Invent Yourself wrote: > This is what I expected, and I look forward to another go-round of the > veridicality debate which will necessarily arise, not so I can argue a > position but so I can re-learn the theory. The idea of "mi claxu ro > fipybirka" is intriguing, and illustrates a place where using a logical > language actually has an impact on usage! Usually I wonder why anyone > bothers with the appelation of "logical", since most sentences translate > conceptually without alteration into English. Yet here is a case where the > simple translation "I lack every fish fin" is interesting English. Another construction where using a logical language impacts usage is statements like "The aardvark is a mammal." The literal translation of this is {le rikteropu cu mabru}; but that means that I have some aardvark in mind (which I do not necessarily assume the speaker knows) and am asserting that it is a mammal. The idiomatic translation is {ro rikteropu cu mabru}; back-translated, this is "All aardvarks are mammals," which sounds like something you'd hear in a logic class. {lo'e rikteropu cu mabru} means that the typical aardvark is a mammal - maybe a few oddballs aren't. {reda kanla lo'e remna} sounds not quite right - it should be {lo'e remna cu se kanla reda}. {reda kanla ro remna} is definitely false, even if there were not blind people - it means that everyone shares two eyes! lo'e .ornitorinku na fadni mabru .ini'ibo na'o se jbena re sovda The typical platypus is not a typical mammal because she typically lays two eggs. phma