Subject: Re: [lojban] a construal of lo'e & le'e

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:06:02 -0500 (EST)

Rob Speer scripsit:

> Let's start discussing a sentence which is less likely to be false. How
> do you say "Every human has a head" without meaning that it is the same
> head for every human?
> 
> {ro remna cu ponse pa stedu}? It would be disturbing if this didn't
> work... but what stops {pa stedu} from referring to the same head for
> every person it is had by?

Because quantifier ordering counts. The persons have to be mentioned before
the heads are.

1)	ro remna cu ponse pa stedu

is equivalent to the full prenexed form:

2)	ro da poi remna pa de poi stedu zo'u da ponse de
For all X's that are human, there is one Y that is a head, such that X owns Y.

So Example 1 and Example 2 are true. Whereas if you said

3)	pa de poi stedu ro da poi remna zo'u da ponse de
There is one Y that is a head, for all X's that are human, such that X owns Y.

it would be false, for we don't all have the same head. If you get the
quantifiers in the correct order in the prenex, then you can
use any order you like in the main bridi; otherwise, the order in the
bridi is presumed to be the order in the prenex.

> {pa stedu cu stedu ro remna}?
> {pazu'i stedu ro remna}? (My understanding of zu'i is that this is
> equivalent to the previous one.)

Those both work, and indeed better, for "ponse" is not truly appropriate.
We don't *own* our heads (and carry them about in our briefcases!); we
*have* heads.

> {[some other prosumti] stedu ro remna}?

IMHO the best (certainly the shortest) way to say what you want is:

4)	ro remna cu se stedu pa da
Each person is-headed-by one something

which in full prenex form is:

5)	ro de poi remna pa da zo'u da stedu de
For all Y's that are human, there is one X, such that X is the head of Y.
> Of course, {stedu ro remna} would work, except there's nowhere to put
> the number, meaning that everyone has some number of heads. This would
> be more significant in the example with eyes.

I don't think this works either: "Look! A head of every man!"

-- 
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan [email-masked]
Please leave your values | Check your assumptions. In fact,
at the front desk. | check your assumptions at the door.
--sign in Paris hotel | --Miles Vorkosigan