From ragnarok@pobox.com Sun Oct 28 18:05:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@intrex.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 29 Oct 2001 02:05:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 43833 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2001 02:05:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Oct 2001 02:05:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Oct 2001 02:05:08 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.98] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id A956835400CE; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:05:10 -0500 Reply-To: To: Subject: RE: [lojban] observatives (was RE: a construal of lo'e & le'e Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:45:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <10.149e7267.290e1232@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Profile: xreig >rob: >''something is a vehicle'' but the fact that there is an obvious zo'e fills >in that THERE'S A CAR. ''blanu'' observes that an event of blanuing occurs >(though if you are advocating the loglan system it is a command to >''blanu''), but then again saying ''le gerku blanu'' observes that an event >of a ''gerku'' being ''blanu'' occurs. Observatives seem pretty fuzzily >defined, because they reallly can't not be. Something is blue is an >observative because it is useless without refering to something reasonable. >But in some contexts that zo'e means ''it'' or ''ey'' or even ''you'' or >'I'', so it could be ''I'm blue''. How is that an observative? Well, it >observes that I am blue. Observatives are not black and white, if you ask> That wasn't Rob. That was me. >Muddled, probably on an ambiguity on "observe" in English. Observatives, in the present sense, are not even reports of observations going >on but closer to exclamations. The object (if there is one -- {fagri} is appropriate long before you have sorted out fuel and oxidizer or >even identified where the fire is exactly) is direcctly observed with the utterance (well, is meant to be -- we can fake it and delay it >somewhat). {le gerku cu blanu} is a report, without any implication of observation, without any urgency implied; {blanu} or, even better, >{blanu gerku} has both of these -- and a motivation to react in appropriate ways as well. Note, relevant to something earlier, that blanu gerku is not urgent. It is informing us that there is a blue dog.