From bob@RATTLESNAKE.COM Mon Oct 29 09:21:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bob@rattlesnake.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 29 Oct 2001 17:21:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 91444 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2001 17:21:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 29 Oct 2001 17:21:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (140.186.114.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Oct 2001 17:21:44 -0000 Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:21:08 +0000 (UTC) To: arosta@uclan.ac.uk Cc: lojbab@lojban.org, ragnarok@pobox.com, lojban@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: (message from And Rosta on Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:10:34 +0000) Subject: Re: [lojban] observatives (was RE: a construal of lo'e & le'e Reply-to: bob@rattlesnake.com References: From: "Robert J. Chassell" #I don't know the history, but I like the observative. ... I've no problem with that. If {mlatu} meant {zo'e1 mlatu (zo'e)}, it would be obvious that zo'e would refer to the thing being pointed at. What I object to is that covert but not overt zo'e in x1 of main bridi has a more restricted range of possible interpretations than overt zo'e and covert zo'e elsewhere. The restriction comes about because the basic observatives of natural languages are at the level of genus. So the x2 of {mlatu], `cat', tends to drop from awareness. Maybe it shouldn't.... that is a nice question. After all, we do argue that all the places of a gismu are equal in some sense. However, in the case of `cat' the x2 is implicit in the notion. There are no cats that that are not of a species. Similarly, a notion like {jubme}, `table', does require that the entity we have in mind has an x3 `legs/base/pedestal', else it is not a table. * cat, x1 is a cat/[puss/pussy/kitten] [feline animal] of species/breed x2; (adjective:) x1 is feline /:/ /=/ mlatu (lat) * table, x1 is a table/flat solid upper surface of material x2, supported by legs/base/pedestal x3 /:/ /=/ jubme (jub jbu) It is interesting that {nilce} is always for a location; not like English `furniture', which may exist without our thinking of where it goes. * furniture, x1 [furniture items] furnishes x2 [location] serving purpose/function x3 /:/ /=/ nilce (ni'e) -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com