From pycyn@aol.com Thu Nov 01 01:32:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 09:32:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 87719 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 09:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 09:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 09:32:12 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.170.33a8096 (4555) for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:32:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <170.33a8096.29127099@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:32:09 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Bald men To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_170.33a8096.29127099_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_170.33a8096.29127099_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/31/2001 1:55:06 PM Central Standard Time,=20 jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU writes: > As pc points out, English speakers could interpret the sentence two ways: > "each and every man doesn't have hair", or "it's not true that every man > has hair". A logician would pick the first one, Lojban is a logical > language, and the Lojban text is constructed accordingly. >=20 Actually, logicians regularly pick the second, as do linguists, by and larg= e. The naku Wiki page says the following. Is it true? jimc says: No. > "All men don't have hair" can be represented in Lojban as >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ro nanmu na se kerfa As pc points out, English speakers could interpret the sentence two ways: "each and every man doesn't have hair", or "it's not true that every man has hair".=A0 A logician would pick the first one, Lojban is a logical language, and the Lojban text is constructed accordingly. > which prenexes as >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 naku ro da poi nanmu zo'u kerfa da No, it doesn't.=A0 The author hoped for the second interpretation, but has failed to use De Morgan's rules when re-ordering a negated sentence: exchange "and" vs.=A0 "or", and likewise exchange existential vs. universal quantification.> Well, yes it does. Remember that the {na} next to the selbri (and the on o= n=20 the following connective) are actually ALREADY at the leftmost end of the=20 prenex. All the quantifiers are thus already correct for that position -- = it=20 is remembering that that is the problem, rather than the shifting problem=20 (which comes with moving {naku} back rightward. <>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 It is false that for each X that is a man, (something) is= X's hair > which is true: some men are bald.> Correct. This is the other version, not the one we started with. This could also be= =20 {roda poi nanmu zo'u naku kerfu da} to get the feel of the English. --part1_170.33a8096.29127099_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/31/2001 1:55:06 PM Central Standard Time, jimc@MATH= .UCLA.EDU writes:

As pc points out, English= speakers could interpret the sentence two ways:
"each and every man doesn't have hair", or "it's not true that every ma= n
has hair". A logician would pick the first one, Lojban is a logic= al
language, and the Lojban text is constructed accordingly.

Actually, logicians regularly pick the second, as do linguists, by and = large.

<Subj: Re: [lojban] Bald men=20=20=20
Date: 10/31/2001 1:55:06 PM Central Standard Time=20
From:=A0 =A0 jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU (James F. Carter)
To:=A0 =A0 lojban@yahoogroups.com
=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20

I didn't notice that this question actually got answered.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Invent Yourself wrote:
> The naku Wiki page says the following. Is it true?

jimc says: No.

> "All men don't have hair" can be represented in Lojban as
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ro nanmu na se kerfa

As pc points out, English speakers could interpret the sentence two way= s:
"each and every man doesn't have hair", or "it's not true that every ma= n
has hair".=A0 A logician would pick the first one, Lojban is a logical
language, and the Lojban text is constructed accordingly.

> which prenexes as
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 naku ro da poi nanmu zo'u kerfa da

No, it doesn't.=A0 The author hoped for the second interpretation, but = has
failed to use De Morgan's rules when re-ordering a negated sentence:
exchange "and" vs.=A0 "or", and likewise exchange existential vs. unive= rsal
quantification.>

Well, yes it does. Remember that the {na} next to the selbri (and= the on on the following connective) are actually ALREADY at the leftmost e= nd of the prenex. All the quantifiers are thus already correct for th= at position -- it is remembering that that is the problem, rather than the = shifting problem (which comes with moving {naku} back rightward.

<>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 It is false that for each X that is a man, (som= ething) is X's hair
> which is true: some men are bald.>

Correct.

<Here's my rendition:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 naku *su'o* da poi nanmu zo'u kerfa da
=A0 =A0 It's false that for even one X which is a man, there exists
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Y [which is] the hair of X.
=A0 =A0 All men are bald.>

This is the other version, not the one we started with. This coul= d also be {roda poi nanmu zo'u naku kerfu da} to get the feel of the Englis= h.
--part1_170.33a8096.29127099_boundary--