Subject: Re: [lojban] "I know you have a brother..."

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:18:21 EST

In a message dated 11/4/2001 10:08:36 AM Central Standard Time, 
[email-masked] writes:

> And a worry about pulling references out of subordinate clauses with mental
> predicates (I believe that Sherlock Holmes is still
> >alive. He raises bees in Suffolk.)
> 
> Which is a problem with the original - I know you have a brother; his name
> is Bill. But with your complaint about the prepositions:
> (8) mi djuno fi lenu zo'e bruna do .i zo bel. ra cmene
> 
> I believe that the English expands to 'I know about your having a brother'
> just as easily as 'I know the fact that you have a brother' - though it
> could also be 'I know about your brotheredness' which could also be:
> (9) mi leka se bruna do djuno>

As noted, the problem fades with {djuno} b3cause it is factive. But, if you 
move to {djuno3} it come back again: what if what I know about the event of 
your having brother is that it does not obtain? Then the referencing doesn't 
work again (There is no God and Berty is His prophet). But the fact is that 
what I know (believe, etc. has to be propositional, else we slide into the 
problem of knowing {djuno} our enxt-door neighbors and so on. The same 
excludes properties (and I wouldn't use {ka} here at the moment, since its 
status -- and exactly how to use it -- are up in the air on this list) and 
maybe more so. 

> 
> Which has the problem that there is then no referent for an anaphor, hence I
> propose:
> (10) mi leka se bruna ko'a goi zo'e ku do djuno .i zo bel. ko'a cmene
> 
> Is ''leka se bruna ko'a'' legitamate, or is it two sumti ({leka se bruna}
> 

I wouldn't both with {goi zo'e} here, since the unassigned {ko'a} is already 
indefinite and "the usual" enough for the purpose intended. I think the rule 
about not extending beyond subordinate clauses spplies only to variables, not 
KOhA generally, but I would still worry about this transfer (quite aside from 
the {ka} problem), for anything other than {djuno}.