From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Tue Nov 06 08:18:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 6 Nov 2001 16:18:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 10522 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2001 16:18:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2001 16:18:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2001 16:18:43 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:55:10 +0000 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:30:25 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:29:47 +0000 To: lojban Subject: Some comments on Jorge's & And's bits of le spofu fonxa 3moi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Poe: My _manner_ had convinced them.=20 Xor: le mi se tarti ba'o birtygau py=20 And: My conduct had been verified by them.=20 "Birtygau" is a good rendering of "convince", and "verified" not a good rendering of "birtygau". I should have thought of "convince", "le mi se tarti" is not that great a rendering of "_manner_"; there should be a "ba'e" in there, and "se tarti" doesn't=20 quite mean "manner" (i.e. not what you do but how you do it). P: I was singularly at ease.=20 X: mi mutce le ka surla i A: I was very much at my ease.=20 Mine was a nonliteral translation ignoring the "le" & successfully guessing at the intended meaning. P: They sat, and while I answered cheerily, they chatted of familiar things= .=20 X: py zutse gi'e tavla fi loi slabu ca le nu mi gleki spuda=20 A: As they sat talking about the same old stuff, I happily replied,=20 I don't know why I didn't write: "They sat talking about the same old stuff, while I happily replied." "The same old stuff" was a slightly unsuccessful attempt to do a nonliteral rendering of "loi slabu". In this instance, a literal translatio= n, "familiar things", would have been closer. P: But, ere long, I felt myself getting pale and wished them gone.=20 X: ku'i bazaku mi cinmo lo nu mi ca'o labybi'o kei gi'e djica lo nu py ba'o= cliva=20 A: but as time went on, my emotion was one of blanching, and I wished for t= he police to be gone.=20 "As time went on" isn't that great a rendering of "ba za ku", but I couldn'= t, and can't, think of anything obviously better. "Ere long" is maybe somethin= g like "ba zu nai ku". It was obvious to me that "my emotion was one of blanching" was most unlikely to be close to the original, and that "I felt myself blanching" wo= uld likely be closer, but I felt that would have been too great a deviation from Jorge's "cinmo". I would have used "ganse", not "cinmo". But this step that I decided to take was nonetheless taken by Evgenis=20 translating from Xod's literal rendition of my English. P: My head ached, and I fancied a ringing in my ears:=20 X: mi cortu le stedu gi'e se xanri lo nu lo se janbe cu nenri lei mi kerlo= =20 A: My head ached, and I imagined there to be ringing in my ears.=20 I had originally considered just "I heard a ringing in my ears" as a nonliteral rendition, because that can mean "I thought there was a ringing that I was hearing", but decided to stay with something more literal, and got closer to the original. Jorge's "se janbe" should have been "se janbe be zi'o", I feel. One can imagine one hears ringing in one's ears without imagining that there are bells. So I also considered "I imagined there to be bells ringing in my ears", but felt that would have been too pedantically literal. P: but still they sat and still chatted.=20 X: ku'i py za'o zutse gi'e za'o tavla=20 A: But still the police sat and still they talked.=20 It helped that I knew Jorge uses "za'o" for still. I'd have used "ba'o nai" or something like that. P: The ringing became more distinct:-- it continued and became more distinc= t:-- X: le se janbe cu binxo lo satci zmadu i ri renvi gi'e binxo lo satci zmadu= =20 A: The ringing grew more and more pronounced.=20 My shortening was a failed attempt to be nonliteral and recover my guess at the original. I wasn't sure how to render "satci" -- I guessed "clearer", but this didn't seem quite the same thing as "precise" =3D literal "satci".=20 P: I talked more freely to get rid of the feeling:=20 X: mi zifre zmadu tavla tezu'e lo nu cirko le se cinmo=20 A: I spoke more freely, so as to be rid of this feeling.=20 100% success. P: but it continued and gained definitiveness-- X: ku'i ri renvi gi'e zenba le ka satci=20 A: But it persisted, getting ever more clear 98% success P: until, at length, I found that the noise was _not_ within my ears. X: ibi'ibo bazaku mi facki le du'u le savru ba'e na'e nenri lei mi kerlo A: and I realized that the noise was in fact not inside my ears. I had no idea what "i bi'i bo" could mean and eventually decided that my best guesses were worse than no guesses, so I ignored it. I don't know why I also ignored "ba za ku".=20 I'm not sure that "ba za ku" is quite right for "at length", but I can't think of a better rendition. "i bi'i bo" is pretty awful for "until". I don't know how to translate "until", but in this instance I think I'd have said something that meant "it was continuing as it began/happened that I found". I should better have rendered "ba'e na'e nenri" as "_not_ inside" or maybe, better, "_outside_". I'd have rendered "_not_ within" as "ba'e na nenri". Overall I find it remarkable how close my version was to Poe's, but it all gets pretty shafted later on: Poe:until, at length, I found that the noise was _not_ within my ears. rab: My ear was stimulated during my inability to give birth. Some brief first impression comments of the rest: Evgenis shifts to present tense. That's not the default narrative tense for English (except for writers who've been through American Creative Writing programs), so makes it sound unnecessarily unnatural. I can't work out why Nora axed the police. --And.