From pycyn@aol.com Sat Nov 10 19:20:12 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 11 Nov 2001 03:20:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 57270 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2001 03:20:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2001 03:20:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m02.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.5) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2001 03:20:12 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.23.1435c7a0 (4446) for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:20:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <23.1435c7a0.291f4869@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:20:09 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] observatives & a construal of lo'e & le'e To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_23.1435c7a0.291f4869_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_23.1435c7a0.291f4869_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/10/2001 5:49:39 PM Central Standard Time, a.rosta@ntlworld.com writes: > Well, yes, you can use a cmene, any cmene, to refer to the generic > Odyssey. When I said "it is important that Lojbab find a way to > refer to the generic Odyssey using "cuktrodisi"", what I meant was > "it is important that Lojbab find an expression that denotes the > generic Odyssey and uses "cuktrodisi"". "la cuktrodisi" means "that > which I am calling 'cuktrodisi'/'Odyssey'", not "that which is the > generic Odyssey". Similarly, "la cinfo" means "that which I am > Why? (or rather Why not?) It certainly can mean that, and, indeed, {la cinfo} seems a wonderflly clear way to say that (well, not "the generic lion", as I would understand that, but "the prototype lion" as I understand And's view). In any case, we cannot decide what any of these gadri means in isolation, since all these systems involve the interrelation of parts. So, the crucial question would be How are {le cinfo} and {le mela cinfo} related, for example -- or, to return to the original problem (where the appropriateness of {la} is even clearer), {le cuktrodisi} and {le mela odisix}. It seems odd for And, perpetual rejector and re"condstruer" of list glosses to suddenly wax excessively literal on this particular reading, especially since it seems to fit so well withwith what he wants, even when read ina casually literal way. --part1_23.1435c7a0.291f4869_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/10/2001 5:49:39 PM Central Standard Time, a.rosta@ntlworld.com writes:


Well, yes, you can use a cmene, any cmene, to refer to the generic
Odyssey. When I said "it is important that Lojbab find a way to
refer to the generic Odyssey using "cuktrodisi"", what I meant was
"it is important that Lojbab find an expression that denotes the
generic Odyssey and uses "cuktrodisi"". "la cuktrodisi" means "that
which I am calling 'cuktrodisi'/'Odyssey'", not "that which is the
generic Odyssey". Similarly, "la cinfo" means "that which I am
calling 'cinfo'/'lion'", not "the generic lion".

Why?  (or rather Why not?)  It certainly can mean that, and, indeed, {la cinfo} seems a wonderflly clear way to say that (well, not "the generic lion", as I would understand that, but "the prototype lion" as I understand And's view).  In any case, we cannot decide what any of these gadri means in isolation, since all these systems involve the interrelation of parts.  So, the crucial question would be How are {le cinfo} and {le mela cinfo} related, for example -- or, to return to the original problem (where the appropriateness of {la} is even clearer), {le cuktrodisi} and {le mela odisix}.  
It seems odd for And, perpetual rejector and re"condstruer" of list glosses to suddenly wax excessively literal on this particular reading, especially since it seems to fit so well withwith what he wants, even when read ina casually literal way.
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