From jspickes@etrademail.com Mon Nov 12 10:34:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jspickes@cc96364-a.hwrd1.md.home.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 12 Nov 2001 18:34:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 45660 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2001 18:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2001 18:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cc96364-a.hwrd1.md.home.com) (24.23.49.116) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2001 18:34:18 -0000 Received: from jspickes by cc96364-a.hwrd1.md.home.com with local (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 163Lty-0003YB-00 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:33:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:33:46 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Introduction, and zutse/se sutse Message-ID: <20011112133346.A8718@cc96364-a.hwrd1.md.home.com> Reply-To: jspickes@etrademail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i X-eGroups-From: jspickes@cc96364-a.hwrd1.md.home.com From: jspickes@etrademail.com --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable coi rodo .i mi cnino ke lojbo tavla .i mi gleki lenu mi ca cmima le lojbo liste Hi everyone, I'm a newbie to lojban, and I'm glad to be taking part in your list. I've been fiddling with lojban in small doses for quite some time, and I think it's really interesting and challenging. For those who are interested, I'm a 26-year-old electrical engineer, and I've been interested in conlangs for a number of years. I first learned a bit of Klingon, then Esperanto to a pretty good level of fluency (which I recently used during a 3-week trip to Brazil where I spoke Esperanto pretty much exclusively) and now lojban. I especially like how lojban makes me really think about what I'm saying, and gives me the ability to be completely unambiguous. Anyway, enough about me. Since I'm a newbie, I have what may be a newbie question. :) The other da= y I was chatting with some folks on us.opirc.org#lojban, (I apologize, but I don't remember the names of those involved. Most certainly they were all much more experienced in lojban than I.) and someone said something to the effect of: .ia ro lo stizu cu se zutse I interpreted this to mean that all stizu's (chairs) are also (se zutse)'s (things sat upon). Not so sure I agreed with this, I asked whether stizu's were se zutse's even if nobody was sitting in them. "Sure they are," was the answer, with the subsequent discussion basically saying that stizu's ar= e se zutse's because someone can sit in/on them. If this is really the case, I think something in my understanding of lojban needs to be adjusted. If I say "da se zutse [zo'e]", it's the same thing as "[zo'e] zutse da", right? That is "someone/something is/was/will be sitting in/on X". If that's right, then it seems to me that "[zo'e] na zutse da" equates to "da na se zutse [zo'e]". "It is not true that someone/something is/was/will be sitting in/on X." equates to "X is not a (se zutse)." Returning to the question of whether all sitzu's are se zutse's, based upon the above paragraph, it seems to me that if nobody ever has, and never will sit in a particular chair, then that chair is not a se zutse. I'm not even quite sure whether my friends in IRC were disagreeing with this fact, thoug= h it certainly seemed like people were arguing that a chair is a (se zutse) because it is something that one normally sits in. Where am I getting confused? :) Thanks in advance,=20 co'o mi'e djan. --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: nLIoskAeQOYkp/L5+kpglPYVyQZKNQKX iQCVAwUBO/AWCV2klqEdb0lJAQFGIwP/cIzZ1c5iik2LQuuRWV0SQDd1qaIXundI ow0sEMICpiPDSN3//Ua6K9toZ3da4ACTBFDmTjuSQE4IqRTD5ZjP2Sg7Jx0Wvx4q QDYSAIUFEwDcn3SSO24DU79jtNSXDsbAZ2VDSRYXjGMYyjvdeWWgSHSrCnhugnus OVAYwT1nKXA= =nn12 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO--