From bob@RATTLESNAKE.COM Mon Nov 26 08:20:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bob@rattlesnake.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 26 Nov 2001 16:20:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 57020 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2001 16:20:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2001 16:20:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (140.186.114.245) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2001 16:20:12 -0000 Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:15:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:15:57 -0500 (EST) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: (jjllambias@hotmail.com) Subject: Re: [lojban] Practical cooperation 1: "is intended to be" Reply-to: bob@rattlesnake.com References: From: "Robert J. Chassell" la djan cusku di'e > RAM (Robert McIvor, the new TLI CEO) has proposed cooperation ... Great! > ... I propose to begin here. > The problem: What's a good tanru/metaphor for the predicate > "x1 is intended (or supposed) to be x2 by the intention of x3"? la xorxes cusku di'e How about {te platu}? I cannot remember TLO Loglan spelling, or how the apostrophe-less LLG Lojban works, but leaving that aside, here is the definition from the LLG Lojban gismu list: * designs, x1 (agent) plans/designs/plots plan/arrangement/plot/[schematic] x2 for state/process x3 /:/ [also invents/organizes; x2 design, scheme; the structure or layout of an object would be represented as a state in x3] /=/ platu (pla) so {terpla} means for state/process x1, plan/arrangement/plot/[schematic] x2 is planned/designed/plotted by x3 (agent) if I was able to make the conversion OK. Given the problem: "x1 is intended (or supposed) to be x2 by the intention of x3"? this means that the x1 is a state or process; this is OK; the x2 is a plan/arrangement/plot/[schematic]; this is OK, too; the x3 is an agent, who does the plotting; this is somewhat OK. The problem with {terpla} is that the agent is a planner or designer. The proposal is for an entity who *intends*, but who will not necessarily carry out the intention into an act of being a planner or designer. We need to incorporate one of the cmavo that suggest `not yet', or `not necessarily'. such as {pu'o}, the `inchoative' event contour, or perhaps {co'a}, the `initiative' event contour. I don't remember how to do this in either TLI Loglan or in LLG Lojban. Nor do I remember how to remove the apostrophe from LLG Lojban, which might make for what some would consider a `nicer looking' written represention. (The apostrophe and no-apostrophe variations of LLG Lojban can be converted from one to the other by following rules; they are fundamentally identical, differing only in their written represention. (The problem is that the no-apostrophe variation requires remembering more than the apostrophe variation and no one to my knowledge uses it. I have always thought that TLI Loglanists would prefer it. Indeed, I might prefer it myself, had I the ability to remember all the rules.) Anyhow, this is a good beginning. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com