Subject: RE: [lojban] The end of the wiki

From: And Rosta <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:57:10 +0000

Steve Belknap was similarly monomaniacal about fuzzy logic and
(quite rightly) never got abused. I don't see why people irked by
Tinkit's messages to the list can't just ignore them. As for the wiki,
I created a section called "wouldn't it have been nice if" for
ideas about how lojban could have been done differently, and for
other kinds of dissent it should be possible to create clearly
headed sections that make it clear they express dissenting and/or
trollish views. 

"Exclaiming how broken Lojban is, and making up some wild solution"
is a hallowed tradition in Lojbanistan. Lots of us do it to a greater or
lesser extent, and it often moves the debate forward, even if only
by making us aware of new reasons why it isn't broken after all.

Anyway, the main point I want to make is that the well-being of our
commonweal requires that we be liberal, forbearing, amicable and
collegial, to the best of our abilities. Maybe it would also help to
remember that if someone wasn't a bit of a crank they wouldn't be
interested in Lojban in the first place; it is a law of nature that anybody
here is a bit of a loon.

--And.

>>> Jay Kominek <[email-masked]> 11/27/01 02:54pm >>>

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, And Rosta wrote:

> Tinkit's wiki contributions *are* about Lojban, even though his views
> are unpopular.

They are _barely_ about Lojban. As one can see with just a bit of
Googling, this whole hexadecimal fixation he has isn't constrained to
merely Lojban. Hell, with the amount of effort he puts into ranting and
raving about it, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd learned Lojban just so
that he'd have another forum in which to go on about hexadecimal.

His other contributions consist of exclaiming how broken Lojban is, and
making up some wild solution. And where he at least has you remotely
interested (redoing the gismu), he doesn't bother to describe how he might
redo them, (most likely because that topic met with a modicum of
acceptance, which isn't any fun) but we're now being subjected to his
variant of the alphabet, which is _not_ related to Lojban.

> he is subjected to abuse there -- censoriousness and threatened
> censorship .

I'm threatening to remove people who consistently demonstrate that they've
no interest in contributing Lojban-related material. The Wiki is
Lojban-related. Other topics, including metadiscussion about the Wiki, are
simply not appropriate. He can make his own Wiki about that if he'd like,
the program is free. My disk space is not, and I've got the right to
decide on what I'm going to waste it.

> The wiki was formerly a delightfully pluralistic dynamic environment
> where people with such conflicting views as Jay and me could rub
> along amicably. The overall sense of community it gave off was, I
> felt, very alluring.

Because at that point, everyone was actually interested in Lojban. thinkit
is not interested in Lojban, he is interested in trolling.

There simply is _no_other_way_ in which to describe someone who
consistently brings up a beaten down topic like he does with hexadecimal.

> And now there are these petty squabbles and the harassing of Tinkit's
> dissent, and the atmosphere of the place is grown most noxious and
> offputting.

>From where I sit, thinkit is actively working to get people to harass him,
which is why we call him a troll.

> AFAIK Tinkit hasn't vandalized the site, so he shouldn't be told to piss
> off or have his IP address blacklisted.

I've no intent of blacklisting him yet, but I'm quite sure that in the
end, it will be demonstrated that not doing so now was a mistake.

Unless something drastic changes, this will be my last message on the
subject of thinkit. My Wiki policy will not change. thinkit can write to
the fucking Secretary-General of the UN, the Pope, the President, and my
grandmother complaining about how I'm committing human rights abuses, and
it won't make a lick of difference. If my policy is so dreadfully
unacceptable, one can download a copy of the backup and use that to make
one's own Wiki. (But thinkit wouldn't ever do that, even though he thinks
this is the end of the Lojban Wiki, as, without other people there to
harass, what fun is it?)

Again, the backups are available at:
http://nuzban.wiw.org/wiki/backup/ 
If a somewhat different format would be of more help to someone, just let
me know and I'll see what I can do.

- Jay Kominek <[email-masked]>
Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+*me chose

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