Subject: Re: [lojban] The end of the wiki

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:46:10 -0500

At 06:39 PM 11/28/01 +0000, And Rosta wrote:
> >>> <[email-masked]> 11/27/01 12:40pm >>>
>#Because I'm interested in conlangs in general, and the lojban grammar
>#in particular. And Rosta...aren't you the same in that way?
>
>Yes, but I joined the community in a kinder gentler era when my
>bolshiness was treated most avuncularly by Lojbab, and now I'm part of
>the furniture.

Lojbab has not said anything that should be taken as other-than-avuncular 
to tinkit (so far). But then, Lojbab did not always feel as avuncular 
about And's bolshiness as he may have acted.

One difference, of course, is that when And was most offensive that 
language was not yet baselined. LLG officially has NO interest in any 
variants of Lojban, and our limited tolerance for differences is extended 
towards the remnant of TLI in the interest of rapprochement behind Lojban 
as the surviving version of Loglan. This will be challenging enough, 
without dealing with "reform" movements of the sort that have split 
language communities in the past.

I have to offer to tinkit that I myself had my own "reform the world" 
proposal, the base-12 time system that was in the original textbook draft, 
shot down by the community several years ago. While Lojban is a radically 
different language from other conlangs, we have taken a fundamentally 
conservative approach to conlang design, sticking to JCBs original premises 
as much as possible, and changing things only as needed to make Lojban work 
as a living language. The Sapir-Whorf test is already designed into the 
grammar of the language; further radical changes from natlangs are not 
needed and indeed could be harmful.

>I don't think anybody mentioned, btw, that you do post to the list and
>the wiki *in Lojban*, which by usual criteria ought to place you on the
>side of the angels.

So long as he continues to do so, he is a Lojbanist. However, I had the 
impression that he was planning on getting those awful gismu out of his 
head, which means that we should not expect further Lojban postings.

The wiki is not an official LLG site and is Jay's effort, so Jay has the 
right to decide the sorts of things he wants to see on that site. (The 
fact that I agree 100% with Jay's attitude toward the language as expressed 
on his page makes supporting his policy easy).

At 06:48 PM 11/28/01 +0000, And Rosta wrote:
> >>> Robin Lee Powell <[email-masked]> 11/27/01 07:52pm >>>
>#On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:57:10PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>#> Steve Belknap was similarly monomaniacal about fuzzy logic and (quite
>#> rightly) never got abused.
>#
>#I suspect he didn't post something titled "lojban uses fuzzy logic by
>#default!!".
>#
>#I also suspect he didn't post something entitled "give me my brain cells
>#back!" bitch about how stupid the language was, and then continue
>#posting anyways. Mostly bitching about how stupid lojban is.

Steve started posting on his issues pre-baseline, though too late to make 
any significant changes. He also spent a long while supporting the 
language before he introduced his personal topic of interest, and he 
continues to support the language (Steve bought ten copies of the book for 
distribution to libraries), even though he does not post.

I also never really saw Steve as posing any sort of radical change. He was 
merely asking how we would express various fuzzy logic concepts in Lojban 
and trying to determine to what extent the language supported fuzzy 
logic. He apparently was satisfied by the conclusion, given his book purchase.

Steve's real challenge was over the long term management of the baseline, 
as to whether and how we would discuss changes that might prove needed 
while during the baseline period.

>Well maybe tinkit has the distinction of combining in a single person at once
>several much abhorred vices. But no single vice is unique to him. Just as
>Steve showed a similar monomania, so I've posted innumerable messages
>criticizing Lojban.

And drawn your share of fire for it. But I think you have also made 
considerable effort to build bridges to key Lojbanists, and made clear when 
the chips are down that you support the language even when you disagree 
with some elements of the design. tinkit has said just the opposite, that 
his disagreement has led him to abandon the language.

It remains unclear whether he has useful contributions to make if he ceases 
to post in Lojban, and has nothing constructive to say about the language 
or the community. If he wants to go off and invent his own variant, he 
would be well advised to look at the historical record of Jim Carter's 
efforts, which did not offend LLG (though they did offend JCB), and Rex 
May's efforts. In both cases they set up their own site, and called the 
language something different and have been low key about their criticism of 
the mainstream effort, letting their own language efforts speak for 
themselves. Negative criticism does not help anyone in the conlang world - 
it only makes enemies.

> Plus, as I just pointed out in my last message, tinkit
>mitigates his vices by the Virtue of having quite a good lojban-to-english 
>ratio in his postings. He took the trouble to learn the language enough to use
>it a bit, which surely means he can't squarely be placed in the bad guy camp.

For that matter, if he wants to assume a hexidecimal base in his Lojban 
writing, he can. But he should not be surprised when his numerical 
statements are not understood as he intends.

But it is always wise to respect your audience in the community. If no one 
wants to hear more about his ideas, then to continue to promote them merely 
arouses enmity and makes sure that his ideas will never get a hearing. He 
would be better off making a personal web page advocating his ideas 
(probably mixed with other stuff that is less controversial) and letting 
people link to his pages via the webring or in free links. Perhaps Jay 
would even allow such a link on tinkit's page in the wiki. Arnt has done 
well in posting some of his personal opinions mixed with good content on 
his Lojban pages, and this serves as a constructive model.

lojbab
--
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org