From gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch Sat Dec 01 07:03:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 15:03:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 35685 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 15:03:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 15:03:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta9n.bluewin.ch) (195.186.1.215) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 15:03:40 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (213.3.52.150) by mta9n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.0.032) id 3C07A05600069BDD for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:03:37 +0100 Message-ID: <009101c17a79$17b5b3a0$4431ca3e@oemcomputer> To: Subject: if Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:00:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "G. Dyke" X-Yahoo-Profile: gregvdyke I think it's time we had another fight about if... zo'o (especially as I've never been in one). First thing I've been wondering about: It is generally accepted that not-or is not a good natlang paraphrase of if ; compare : If it is good weather, we go for a walk. It's not good weather or we go for a walk. But, as the truth values correspond, the sentences both mean the same thing: good weather -> go for walk not good weather -> go for a walk or not go for a walk I believe ganai - gi works perfectly well ganai xamgu tcima gi cadzu other sentences that can't be translated with ganai (using words I happen to know the lojban for): I you meet john, welcome him It's ridiculous to use ganai gi, as this sentence does not cover cases when you don't meet john. I suggest: fau lenu do penmi la djan. ku ko cusku lu fi'i djan I have more trouble with the sentence if you had met john, you'd have thought he was handsome. Grice says that in fact you didn't meet john, so ganai gi logic says we'll never know what your opinion of his handsomeness is. fau da'i lenu do pu penmi la djan kei do jinvi ledu'u ri melbi The last type I have to suggest is: It is not true that If I'm rich, I'm happy naku lonu mi ricfu ku nibli lonu mi gleki Where does mu'ei fit? What do I do with sentences like "he wouldn't have been caught if he hadn't been there" which usually assert that he was caught and he was there? Do you dis/agree? What other possibilities are there? Greg -- http://www.myepfl.ch/gregory.dyke .i lo'e to'e makcu cu djica lenu tolcumla morsi kei lo telda'a .i lo'e je'a makcu cu go'i to'ebo le se go'i