From edward.cherlin.sy.67@aya.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 23:59:53 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: edward@webforhumans.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_2); 12 Dec 2001 07:59:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 83381 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2001 07:59:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2001 07:59:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta5.snfc21.pbi.net) (206.13.28.241) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2001 07:59:53 -0000 Received: from mcp ([216.102.199.245]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GO800ANV0VTN6@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:59:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:59:55 -0800 Subject: RE: [lojban] Logical translation request In-reply-to: To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <001c01c182e2$fd80a1d0$1e00a8c0@mcp> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-eGroups-From: Edward Cherlin From: Edward Cherlin X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31895329 X-Yahoo-Profile: echerlin Sorry, I didn't realize that the context would not be recognized. The sentence to be translated is an approximate quotation from Star Trek. http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/constantine/157/tos/spock.html says "Born 2230 on planet Vulcan. His mother, Amanda Grayson, was a human schoolteacher from Earth, and his father, Sarek, was a diplomat from Vulcan. As a result, he was torn between two worlds, the stern discipline of Vulcan logic and the emotionalism of his human side. The struggle to reconcile his two halves would torment him for much of his life." The exact quotation, from the episode Journey To Babel, is * "Emotional, isn't she?" -- Spock * "She has always been so." -- Sarek * "Indeed. Why did you marry her?" -- Spock * "It seemed the logical thing to do at the time." -- Sarek The anaphora thus refer to Sarek's marriage and the time when he presumably decided to propose marriage to Amanda Grayson. He recognized that things did not turn out as intended/expected/hoped/planned. The statement is not meant ironically, but the speaker is aware of the irony in the situation. It seems to me that an action cannot properly be described as logical in itself in Lojban. We might be trying to say, "It seemed to be the best available action according to a logical analysis of the situation." If so, we would like a word that sums up that relationship of facts, ideas, and chains of thought. A Lojbanic analysis of other Vulcan utterances from the show should provide scope for great ingenuity from this list, and also hilarity. -----Original Message----- From: pycyn@aol.com [mailto:pycyn@aol.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:54 PM In a message dated 12/7/2001 7:14:06 PM Central Standard Time, phma@oltronics.net writes: > "At the time, it seemed the logical thing to do." ca lenu co'e kei lenu gasnu kei pu simlu le ka lojdra "At the time of some event, the event of being an agent seemed to have the property of being valid" Maybe "doing something seemed valid"? In any case, I'll focus on {lojdra} and suggest that that is almost certainly not what is meant (I know it is what is said, more or less, in English). This seems to be a practical more than a strictly logical matter, even if it points to a careful consideration of the outcomes of a variety of choices carried out by deep reasoning. The test is what result is best, not what follows from what -- though what result is best may be decided by what a deduction from a statement of goals. Of course, "seemed" suggests that there was no serious argumentation, rather a rough-and-ready calculation or maybe just intuition or even a guess -- so no logic at all in fact. "Seemed most likely to lead to a successful outcome" is about the sense. The two anaphora, "the time" and "it" require more context to flesh out: "it" is likely the content of some recent sentence "Why did you ...?" and so can be picked up with an appopriate version of prosumti for components of earlier sentences. The same may be the case with "the time" or it may require some specific filling in. Perhaps, {co'e} does work in context even