From ragnarok@pobox.com Mon Dec 31 21:17:12 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@intrex.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Jan 2002 05:17:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 83414 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2002 05:17:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2002 05:17:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2002 05:17:12 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.98] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id A664708E00D6; Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:17:24 -0500 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] What are you doing now?? Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:17:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <0112312108490G.20067@neofelis> Importance: Normal X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> -Realize with horror that Tolkein's Black Speech is easier to translate >> into lojban than English (since it doesn't mark nouns for definiteness >> either) >ki'a? .i la xekri bangu cu terfilmau le glibau fo le nu fanva fi la lojban >ce'u, .ije'i la lojban cu terfilmau le glibau fo le nu fanva fi ce'u la xekri >bangu? Both. Because articles mark for definiteness in English and not Lojban, one cannot capture some of the subtleties of 'the' when writing in lojban, nor can one translate lojban to English perfectly because English requires this marking. Since the Black Speech, like Russian, has no article, it is more like lojban in this respect. A lojban translation of the Ring inscription would be easier from the BS than from English (and more accurate, as BS-Westron-English-Lojban will lose more information than BS-Lojban). Now, because the info added in rendering {burzum-ishi} as 'in the darkness' in terms of using a definite article is the same as that which is removed when going into lojban, it won't have much affect - except for any effect that the malglico assumption of lo=a/le=the will have. Thus, while in most specific cases it won't matter, it is theoretically easier to go directly from BS to Lojban. It is easier to go from Black Speech to Lojban than Black Speech to English because you do not have to add information. It is easier to go from Black Speech to Lojban than English to Lojban because you do not have to remove information. --la kreig.daniyl. 'ro temci lo menli cu nibli' xy.sy. gubmau ckiku nacycme: 0x5C3A1E74