Subject: crdlus. critique

From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:46:11 -0500

I think the idea of translating the "SHRDLU" dialogue into Lojban is
pretty neat. Generally, the translation made sense to me - but in some
parts it seemed implausible, because "la prenu" would leave things
unspecified and "la skami" would understand exactly what was referred
to.

Here's my critique. I hope it's helpful.

Person: PICK UP A BIG RED BLOCK.
la prenu: ko lafti da poi barda ke xunre bliku

{barda je xunre}. In fact, since I believe that {je} isn't used nearly
enough, leading to the slightly malglico habit of using tanru for
adjectives (remember, {blanu je zdani} is much more specific than
{blanu zdani}), I'd go as far as {barda je xunre je bliku}.

Incidentally, why not just {ko lafti pa barda je xunre je bliku}?

Computer: I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHICH PYRAMID YOU MEAN.
la skami: .i mi na'e jimpe ledu'u makau poi jipkubli ku'o du lesego'i

I believe the English "I don't understand which one you mean" is
idiomatic. The computer understands the situation, but it doesn't know
which block is referred to, so I'd use {djuno} instead of {jimpe}.

Computer: THE BLUE PYRAMID AND THE BLUE BLOCK.
la skami: .i le blanu jipkubli .e le blanu kurkubli

Same here. I'd say {blanu je jipkubli}, unless the computer is
deliberately trying to seem friendlier with informal usage.

The tanru-for-adjective problem is one that shows up in many people's
Lojban, including my own. I'm sure that what I have of Flatland includes
several instances of je-phobia.

Person: WHAT IS THE PYRAMID SUPPORTED BY?
la prenu: .i le jipkubli se sarji ma

Strictly a grammatical issue: {.i le jipkubli cu se sarji ma}

Person: HOW MANY BLOCKS ARE NOT IN THE BOX?
la prenu: .i xo le bliku na'e nenri le tanxe

I'd think the appropriate response by the computer here would be {.i mi
na'e djuno ledu'u makau poi bliku du lego'i}, because the {le} indicates
that the person is only referring to certain blocks. {xo bliku} would
work.

Computer: FOUR OF THEM.
la skami: .i vo lego'i

I think only {.i vo} would be necessary, because the person asked {xo}.

Person: IS AT LEAST ONE OF THEM NARROWER THAN THE ONE WHICH I TOLD YOU
TO PICK UP?
la prenu: .i pau su'oda poi go'e gi'e xu jakmau de poi mi pu minde do
lemu'e lafti ke'a

Hmm... there's no selbri here. How about:
{.i xu su'oda poi go'e cu jakmau de poi mi pu minde do lemu'e lafti
ke'a}

Computer: YES, THE RED CUBE.
la skami: .i go'i .i le xunre kurkubli

How about {.i go'i fa le xunre je kurkubli}?

You actually did this later on. SHRDLU's answers would probably be
fairly consistent in form. I think that filling the places of {go'i} is
the best form for "YES, THE ___ ONE", and that {.i vi'o .uo} would be
the best for "OK. (does it)".

Person: STACK UP TWO PYRAMIDS.
la prenu: .i ko poidregau lei re jipkubli

{lei} isn't necessary - the person doesn't care which ones, and the
computer doesn't care whether they should be considered a mass.

Person: WILL YOU PLEASE STACK UP BOTH OF THE RED BLOCKS AND EITHER A
GREEN CUBE OR A PYRAMID?
la prenu: .i pe'u ko poidregau lo re xunre kurkubli ku joi gonai pa
crino kurkubli gi pa jipkubli

I was ready to shoot down {lo re xunre kurkubli} as a Gotcha, but now I
realized that you may have very intentionally done that. As far as
SHRDLU is concerned, those _are_ the only two red blocks that exist.

However, I'd think that SHRDLU would assume by default that you mean
"one of the only two red blocks", not "both of the only two red blocks",
so you'd at least need {ro lo re xunre kurkubli}.

Person: PUT A SMALL ONE ONTO THE GREEN CUBE WHICH SUPPORTS A PYRAMID.
la prenu: .i ko punji lo cmalu le cpana be le crino kurkubli poi sarji
lo jipkubli

{lo cmalu} would refer to any small object(s), but the person is referring
to a large block behind a pyramid. I'd use {pa cmalu je go'i}.

Computer: I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "ON TOP OF "IN THE PHRASE "ON TOP
OF GREEN CUBES " .
DO YOU MEAN:
* 1 - DIRECTLY ON THE SURFACE
* 2 - ANWHERE ON TOP OF ?

la skami: .i ju'ocu'i ma smuni pi'o do zo cpana po'e lu cpana lo
crino kurkubli li'u
.i pau ri tepi'o le se smuni ge'i
* pamai ledu'u lamji cpana ku gi
* remai ledu'u ve'e gapru vau

Not a criticism at all - I'm rather impressed with your translation
here! If someone does compile a list of good usage for cmavo, this
should be the one for {gi'i}.

Person: HAD YOU TOUCHED ANY PYRAMID BEFORE YOU PUT THE GREEN ONE ON
THE LITTLE CUBE?
la prenu: .i xu da goi ko'a poi jipkubli zo'u do puba'o pencu da ca
lenu do punji lo crino jipkubli le cpana be le cmalu kurkubli

{ca lenu} should be {pu lenu}.

It's my belief that {da} stays bound when used anywhere in Lojban except
in a logic textbook. So the {goi ko'a} is unnecessary. But by that same
reason, the {da} should either be {di} or {da'o da}. 

Computer: WHILE I WAS STACKING UP THE RED CUBE, A LARGE RED BLOCK AND A
LARGE GREEN CUBE.
la skami: .i ca lenu mi poidregau nu'i le xunre kurkubli lo barda xunre
bo bliku lo barda crino bo kurkubli

The person already said {ca ma}; repeating {ca} is redundant and
technically doesn't even answer the question. It would make complete
sense coming from a person, but this is a computer talking.

The same applies for {mu'i ma ... .i mu'i lenu}.

When the computer answers in the form {.i tezu'e lenu punji...} it's a
bit trickier. I think switching the order to {.i lenu tezu'e punji...}
would answer the question, but I'm not sure.

Person: WHAT DID THE RED CUBE SUPPORT BEFORE YOU STARTED TO CLEAN IT
OFF?
la prenu: .i pau le xunre kurkubli sarji ma puzijeca lenu do co'a kligau
vo'a

Just a missing {cu} again.

Computer interrupting: SORRY, I DON'T KNOW THE WORD "STEEPLE".
.i la skami: ta'a .u'uki'a. mi na te smuni lo'u masyji'o le'u

Nice. This is very Lojbanic. I wouldn't have thought of using {mi na te
smuni}.

Computer: YES, FOUR THINGS: THE BOX , THE RED CUBE, THE BLUE PYRAMID AND
THE BLOCK NAMED SUPERBLOCK
la skami: .i go'i .i vomei .i le tanxe .e le xunre kurkubli .e le blanu
jipkubli .e le bliku me'e zo trajblik

{me'e} should be {beme'e}.

Person: THANK YOU.
la prenu: .i ki'e

And thank you too for reading this far through my criticisms. :)
-- 
la rab.spir
noi djica lenu ri tavla la crdlus