From rob@twcny.rr.com Fri Jan 04 14:46:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rob@twcny.rr.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 4 Jan 2002 22:46:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 24505 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2002 22:46:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jan 2002 22:46:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout5.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.169) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2002 22:46:15 -0000 Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-0 [24.92.226.74]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/Road Runner 1.12) with ESMTP id g04MkCq06964 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from riff ([24.92.246.4]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:46:11 -0500 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16Md6J-0000P7-00 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:46:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:46:11 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: crdlus. critique Message-ID: <20020104224611.GD1109@twcny.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com From: Rob Speer Reply-To: rob@twcny.rr.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2572649 X-Yahoo-Profile: squeekybobo I think the idea of translating the "SHRDLU" dialogue into Lojban is pretty neat. Generally, the translation made sense to me - but in some parts it seemed implausible, because "la prenu" would leave things unspecified and "la skami" would understand exactly what was referred to. Here's my critique. I hope it's helpful. Person: PICK UP A BIG RED BLOCK. la prenu: ko lafti da poi barda ke xunre bliku {barda je xunre}. In fact, since I believe that {je} isn't used nearly enough, leading to the slightly malglico habit of using tanru for adjectives (remember, {blanu je zdani} is much more specific than {blanu zdani}), I'd go as far as {barda je xunre je bliku}. Incidentally, why not just {ko lafti pa barda je xunre je bliku}? Computer: I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHICH PYRAMID YOU MEAN. la skami: .i mi na'e jimpe ledu'u makau poi jipkubli ku'o du lesego'i I believe the English "I don't understand which one you mean" is idiomatic. The computer understands the situation, but it doesn't know which block is referred to, so I'd use {djuno} instead of {jimpe}. Computer: THE BLUE PYRAMID AND THE BLUE BLOCK. la skami: .i le blanu jipkubli .e le blanu kurkubli Same here. I'd say {blanu je jipkubli}, unless the computer is deliberately trying to seem friendlier with informal usage. The tanru-for-adjective problem is one that shows up in many people's Lojban, including my own. I'm sure that what I have of Flatland includes several instances of je-phobia. Person: WHAT IS THE PYRAMID SUPPORTED BY? la prenu: .i le jipkubli se sarji ma Strictly a grammatical issue: {.i le jipkubli cu se sarji ma} Person: HOW MANY BLOCKS ARE NOT IN THE BOX? la prenu: .i xo le bliku na'e nenri le tanxe I'd think the appropriate response by the computer here would be {.i mi na'e djuno ledu'u makau poi bliku du lego'i}, because the {le} indicates that the person is only referring to certain blocks. {xo bliku} would work. Computer: FOUR OF THEM. la skami: .i vo lego'i I think only {.i vo} would be necessary, because the person asked {xo}. Person: IS AT LEAST ONE OF THEM NARROWER THAN THE ONE WHICH I TOLD YOU TO PICK UP? la prenu: .i pau su'oda poi go'e gi'e xu jakmau de poi mi pu minde do lemu'e lafti ke'a Hmm... there's no selbri here. How about: {.i xu su'oda poi go'e cu jakmau de poi mi pu minde do lemu'e lafti ke'a} Computer: YES, THE RED CUBE. la skami: .i go'i .i le xunre kurkubli How about {.i go'i fa le xunre je kurkubli}? You actually did this later on. SHRDLU's answers would probably be fairly consistent in form. I think that filling the places of {go'i} is the best form for "YES, THE ___ ONE", and that {.i vi'o .uo} would be the best for "OK. (does it)". Person: STACK UP TWO PYRAMIDS. la prenu: .i ko poidregau lei re jipkubli {lei} isn't necessary - the person doesn't care which ones, and the computer doesn't care whether they should be considered a mass. Person: WILL YOU PLEASE STACK UP BOTH OF THE RED BLOCKS AND EITHER A GREEN CUBE OR A PYRAMID? la prenu: .i pe'u ko poidregau lo re xunre kurkubli ku joi gonai pa crino kurkubli gi pa jipkubli I was ready to shoot down {lo re xunre kurkubli} as a Gotcha, but now I realized that you may have very intentionally done that. As far as SHRDLU is concerned, those _are_ the only two red blocks that exist. However, I'd think that SHRDLU would assume by default that you mean "one of the only two red blocks", not "both of the only two red blocks", so you'd at least need {ro lo re xunre kurkubli}. Person: PUT A SMALL ONE ONTO THE GREEN CUBE WHICH SUPPORTS A PYRAMID. la prenu: .i ko punji lo cmalu le cpana be le crino kurkubli poi sarji lo jipkubli {lo cmalu} would refer to any small object(s), but the person is referring to a large block behind a pyramid. I'd use {pa cmalu je go'i}. Computer: I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "ON TOP OF "IN THE PHRASE "ON TOP OF GREEN CUBES " . DO YOU MEAN: * 1 - DIRECTLY ON THE SURFACE * 2 - ANWHERE ON TOP OF ? la skami: .i ju'ocu'i ma smuni pi'o do zo cpana po'e lu cpana lo crino kurkubli li'u .i pau ri tepi'o le se smuni ge'i * pamai ledu'u lamji cpana ku gi * remai ledu'u ve'e gapru vau Not a criticism at all - I'm rather impressed with your translation here! If someone does compile a list of good usage for cmavo, this should be the one for {gi'i}. Person: HAD YOU TOUCHED ANY PYRAMID BEFORE YOU PUT THE GREEN ONE ON THE LITTLE CUBE? la prenu: .i xu da goi ko'a poi jipkubli zo'u do puba'o pencu da ca lenu do punji lo crino jipkubli le cpana be le cmalu kurkubli {ca lenu} should be {pu lenu}. It's my belief that {da} stays bound when used anywhere in Lojban except in a logic textbook. So the {goi ko'a} is unnecessary. But by that same reason, the {da} should either be {di} or {da'o da}. Computer: WHILE I WAS STACKING UP THE RED CUBE, A LARGE RED BLOCK AND A LARGE GREEN CUBE. la skami: .i ca lenu mi poidregau nu'i le xunre kurkubli lo barda xunre bo bliku lo barda crino bo kurkubli The person already said {ca ma}; repeating {ca} is redundant and technically doesn't even answer the question. It would make complete sense coming from a person, but this is a computer talking. The same applies for {mu'i ma ... .i mu'i lenu}. When the computer answers in the form {.i tezu'e lenu punji...} it's a bit trickier. I think switching the order to {.i lenu tezu'e punji...} would answer the question, but I'm not sure. Person: WHAT DID THE RED CUBE SUPPORT BEFORE YOU STARTED TO CLEAN IT OFF? la prenu: .i pau le xunre kurkubli sarji ma puzijeca lenu do co'a kligau vo'a Just a missing {cu} again. Computer interrupting: SORRY, I DON'T KNOW THE WORD "STEEPLE". .i la skami: ta'a .u'uki'a. mi na te smuni lo'u masyji'o le'u Nice. This is very Lojbanic. I wouldn't have thought of using {mi na te smuni}. Computer: YES, FOUR THINGS: THE BOX , THE RED CUBE, THE BLUE PYRAMID AND THE BLOCK NAMED SUPERBLOCK la skami: .i go'i .i vomei .i le tanxe .e le xunre kurkubli .e le blanu jipkubli .e le bliku me'e zo trajblik {me'e} should be {beme'e}. Person: THANK YOU. la prenu: .i ki'e And thank you too for reading this far through my criticisms. :) -- la rab.spir noi djica lenu ri tavla la crdlus