From xod@sixgirls.org Sat Jan 05 00:04:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 5 Jan 2002 08:04:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 33419 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2002 08:04:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jan 2002 08:04:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (216.27.131.50) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2002 08:04:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0584KU14915 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:04:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:04:18 -0500 (EST) To: Subject: Re: [lojban] je (was: crdlus. critique) In-Reply-To: <20020105023530.GL1109@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1138703 X-Yahoo-Profile: throwing_back_the_apple A difference is only a difference if it makes a difference. On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Rob Speer wrote: > There really is only one meaning, in most contexts, for {mi skami > sazri}. It doesn't make sense to operate an abstraction, and I am > probably not a computer that uses a tool. Yet people do say things like > {mi sazri le skami} even with one "extra" syllable. That doesn't make it "right". It's labored, it's prolix, and it probably means they are translating from "I operate a computer" instead of "I'm a computer operator". Sometimes I wonder to what an extent Lojban is anything but a substitution-cipher for English; I think later generations will bark at our struggles with makau as being the worst form of English/Natlang import. I agree with your objectives here. > You can let context take the place of clarity, saving a few syllables > along the way, very easily in Lojban. Michael Helsem's tanru are proof > of that. So why don't we all speak Lojban like him? Perhaps the issue resolves to this: In some alien context that I can only imagine with great effort, where there are things that can da xunre do'e le bliku but others that can de bliku xunre, and still others that can di bliku le pu'u xunre, then some differentiation is meaningful. But in the context of the specific interchange being considered, xunre bliku = bliku xunre = bliku je xunre = xunre je bliku. The "world" contains nothing but shapes of different colors. And one thing about Helsem: nobody can accuse him of malglico. -- The tao that can be tar(1)ed is not the entire Tao. The path that can be specified is not the Full Path.