From candide@urbanium.tv Sun Jan 06 08:26:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: candide@urbanium.tv X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 6 Jan 2002 16:26:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 34645 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2002 16:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jan 2002 16:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO urbanium.urbanium.tv) (194.183.224.155) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2002 16:26:15 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:26:25 +0100 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban Text to Speech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <0GPI00DH4IN8CO@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> Message-Id: <212FCE8E-02C2-11D6-8F27-000393074A5A@urbanium.tv> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) Received: from 212.68.238.171.brutele.be ([212.68.238.171]) by urbanium.urbanium.tv (JAMES SMTP Server 1.2.1rc2) with SMTP ID 530 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:26:14 +0100 From: Candide Kemmler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92614944 Le dimanche 6 janvier 2002, =E0 11:33 AM, Edward Cherlin a =E9crit : > On Friday 04 January 2002 07:57 am, Candide Kemmler wrote: > >> Yes, I personnally cannot pronunciate "r"'s like the Italians do >> (trilled ?). And I don't know about the Irish "r". Perhaps the best >> consensus is the American "r"... >> >> Candide > > Actually, therre arre severral distinctive Amurrcan 'r's, and some > that disappeah entially. Arnt Richard Johansen has very brilliantly discussed the different types=20 or r's: The official Lojban R is the alveolar approximant, SAMPA [\r], which is used in among others US English, UK English, and Swedish. It is also possible to pronounce R as an alveolar trill, SAMPA [r], as in Spanish. The preferred pronunciation, however, seems to be the apico-alveolar tap, "fish-hook r", as in Spanish, some dialects of Japanese, and some=20 dialects of Norwegian. As far as I'm concerned and given my specific mission, I've spoken today=20 with a pronunciation specialist (in french: "logop=E8de", what's the=20 english word ? Searched in several online dictionaries... no one seems=20 to know the word...). He says that he's met several people with that same handicap (and as a=20 matter of fact, my girlfriend is just like me in this respect !).=20 Trilling the R, says he, requires specific tongue skills that some=20 people seem very incapable to learn. Now, I must say that from the above distinctive R's I don't precisely=20 know what the "alveolar trill" is, and maybe I could give it a try. But=20 I do know that I cannot pronunciate the "apico-alveolar tap, fish-hook=20 r". Therefore, since I'm guessing (but only guessing) that nobody=20 experiences problems with this kind of "r", and since it is also the=20 "official" R ("official" because, says Arnt, it's so pronounced by the=20 speakers of the LLG conversation tapes), I propose that we stick with=20 the alveolar R. The french "R" (don't know the scientific word for that one...) could be=20 used too, but I don't think it's very popular. And as randl. nortmn.=20 stressed they are hardly distinguishable from the lojban 'x' (but then,=20 the "xr" diphtong seems equally problematic with the both the alveolar=20 and the "french" R...) It's very sad for me, as I love trilled r's and I also think that they=20 fit perfectly with lojban. However, since I'm definitely not the only one experiencing this=20 problem, it's maybe even a chance that I'm the one supposed to record=20 the diphones ! But are actually two people interested in doing the=20 recordings, and my colleague's mother tongue is Greek: he has no=20 problems with trilled R's. So what do we do ? - Do we let Ioannis (my Greek colleague) record the sounds with trilled=20 "apico-alveolar, fish-hook r's", knowing that some people might=20 experience problems pronunciating them ? - Do we use the alveolar R ? - Do we record both versions ? (...) Candide