Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban Text to Speech

From: Edward Cherlin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:45:05 -0800

On Sunday 06 January 2002 08:26 am, Candide Kemmler wrote:

> Arnt Richard Johansen has very brilliantly discussed the different
> types or r's:
>
> <citation>
> The official Lojban R is the alveolar approximant, SAMPA [\r],
> which is used in among others US English, UK English, and Swedish.
>
> It is also possible to pronounce R as an alveolar trill, SAMPA [r],
> as in Spanish.
>
> The preferred pronunciation, however, seems to be the
> apico-alveolar tap, "fish-hook r", as in Spanish, some dialects of
> Japanese, and some dialects
> of Norwegian.
> </citation>
>
> As far as I'm concerned and given my specific mission, I've spoken
> today with a pronunciation specialist (in french: "logopède",
> what's the english word ? Searched in several online
> dictionaries... no one seems to know the word...).

We used to have elocutionists, but nowadays I only hear about speech 
therapy and accent reduction.

> He says that he's met several people with that same handicap (and
> as a matter of fact, my girlfriend is just like me in this respect
> !). Trilling the R, says he, requires specific tongue skills that
> some people seem very incapable to learn.

This does not seem to be the case. Every baby can trill an 'r'. 

For older people who are out of the habit, it takes a few hours 
practice with help from someone who can say it. I think the problem 
is just that people get discouraged too soon. We have this problem in 
the Slavyanka Russian Chorus, where I sing. The music director has 
ordered those who do not trill well not to trill at all during 
rehearsals or performance. These are people who have been singing in 
Russian for years, in most cases without learning Cyrillic either, 
although we all know that they could if they felt like it.

> Now, I must say that from the above distinctive R's I don't
> precisely know what the "alveolar trill" is, and maybe I could give
> it a try. But I do know that I cannot pronunciate the
> "apico-alveolar tap, fish-hook r".
>
> Therefore, since I'm guessing (but only guessing) that nobody
> experiences problems with this kind of "r", 

Japanese and Koreans, who use the single flap fishhook r, and 
Chinese, who use something quite different, have great difficulty 
with the alveolar approximant, as do many Italians, French, and 
Germans. 

> and since it is also
> the "official" R ("official" because, says Arnt, it's so pronounced
> by the speakers of the LLG conversation tapes), I propose that we
> stick with the alveolar R.

The standard is to use any rhotic sound, and we should respect the 
linguistic analysis that went into that decision.

> The french "R" (don't know the scientific word for that one...)
> could be used too, but I don't think it's very popular. And as
> randl. nortmn. stressed they are hardly distinguishable from the
> lojban 'x' (but then, the "xr" diphtong seems equally problematic
> with the both the alveolar and the "french" R...)

Speak for yourself. Some of us can easily make these distinctions. 
For one thing, French 'r' is voiced, while 
Russian/German/Scottish/Hebrew/Yiddish/Lojban 'x's (ch, kh) are 
unvoiced.

> It's very sad for me, as I love trilled r's and I also think that
> they fit perfectly with lojban.
>
> However, since I'm definitely not the only one experiencing this
> problem, it's maybe even a chance that I'm the one supposed to
> record the diphones ! But are actually two people interested in
> doing the recordings, and my colleague's mother tongue is Greek: he
> has no problems with trilled R's.
>
> So what do we do ?

Collect as many different 'r's as possible.

> - Do we let Ioannis (my Greek colleague) record the sounds with
> trilled "apico-alveolar, fish-hook r's", knowing that some people
> might experience problems pronunciating them ?
>
> - Do we use the alveolar R ?
>
> - Do we record both versions ?
>
> (...)
>
> Candide
>
>
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-- 
Edward Cherlin
[email-masked]
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