Subject: Re: [lojban] po'u considered harmful

From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:25:02 -0500

On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 09:18:36PM -0500, Craig wrote:
> coi rodo
> 
> I see two difficulties in proper use of po'u and no'u.
> 
> The first is that it can, depending on context, be malglico.
> 
> The phrase 'mi po'u la kreig.' expands to 'mi poi du la kreig.', which
> further becomes 'mi poi ke'a du la kreig.', which in turn asserts that 'ke'a
> du la kreig.', and since ke'a = mi here, it asserts that 'mi du la kreig.'.
> It is, however, not expressing equality in a mathematical sense, as two
> people (mi and la kreig.) might be the same person, as they are here, but
> they have no numerical values and thus are not equal to one another. In
> fact, such a use of du as 'mi du la kreig' would surely be taken as being
> malglico by most lojban-speaking listeners, as one could easily say either
> 'mi'e kreig.' or 'mi me la kreig.' The former has no relevance to a
> discussion of po'u, obviously, but notice that 'poime' and 'po'u' have very
> similar grammars and the same number of syllables.

Why do you assume po'u means {poi du} and now {poi me}?

> However, the second of these examples runs into the second problem with
> po'u: ignorance of the place structure of du. Since po'u implies a stealth
> du, 'mi po'u la kreig le zarci cu klama' in fact means 'mi poi ke'a du la
> kreig le zarci cu klama' - and thus asserts that 'mi du la kreig le zarci',
> for du is multi-placed and asserts all places to be equal. mi na zarci, so
> when using po'u, ku or ku'o is more necessary than commonly interpreted; I
> am probably guilty of calling myself things that I am not for this reason.

This is just wrong. Only one sumti goes inside po'u. Replacing it with
{poi du} or {poi me} on the fly, for this reason, doesn't work. If you
don't believe me, look at how jbofi'e parses {mi po'u la kreig. le zarci
cu klama}.

So the reason {po'u} is useful is because it ends after one sumti, and
neither {poi me} or {poi du} do.

> For these reasons, I will now begin to use 'poime' instead of 'po'u'
> whenever I remember, and encourage others to do the same.

Knock yourself out.
-- 
la rab.spir
po'u le sarji be zo gumri