From cowan@ccil.org Sun Feb 03 17:55:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: cowan@mercury.ccil.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 4 Feb 2002 01:55:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 45152 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 01:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Feb 2002 01:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mercury.ccil.org) (192.190.237.100) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 01:55:27 -0000 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16XYM6-0002v4-00 for ; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:55:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Truth Value of UI (was: Re: UI for 'possible' (was: Re: [lojban] Bibletranslation style question) In-Reply-To: from Invent Yourself at "Feb 3, 2002 01:03:51 pm" To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:55:38 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-eGroups-From: John Cowan From: John Cowan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=212516 X-Yahoo-Profile: johnwcowan Invent Yourself scripsit: > People sometimes say "Oh, fuck!" and "Ouch!" as utterances in discussions > to communicate their state of emotions. The fact that at other times, the > ingrained communicative habit triggers an ejaculation outside of a > discussion is caused by, and not parallel to, their original communicative > function. But which is the original function, communicative or non-communicative? You just presume without evidence that it is the former? We may note that Broca's aphasics, who cannot find the words for what they wish to say, are still able to express themselves fluently by cursing. > Are you going to try to convince me that there are words that were created > and taught with the intent of private, internal use, and that are never > intended for interpersonal communication? *Anything* that's under voluntary control at all can be used for interlocution. Most people can belch voluntarily, and supposedly there are cultures where it is de rigueur to belch to show one's appreciation of the food, but would you argue that belching is originally and fundamentally communicative, and its function of releasing gas from the upper GI tract is mere "ingrained habit"? > There are a sufficient number of people that will agree that an entity > with spoken and written incarnations and a socially agreed meaning is a > "symbol". In Lojban unlike other languages whatever is speakable is writable, and vice versa, so that is no criterion. > Of course, a speaker can dissemble > > and say "ui" when not actually happy, but likewise one can carefully > > carve a footprint in the ground using a spatula to falsely create > > the impression that someone has trodden there. A 'footprint' not made > > by treading is a fake footprint, and a "ui" said when not happy is > > a fake "ui". > > Well, you've agreed that UI has a truth value. I wish I had read this part > first before I wasted time responding to the rest. I'm glad you've come > around! By no means. Take a more extreme example: the grunt, conventionally written "unh", that people make when punched heavily in the abdomen. An actor can reproduce that sound even when he or she is not being punched, but that does not make the sound fundamentally communicative. Fundamentally, it is a *physical* reaction. UI grunts are somewhat more language-like than "unh", but they belong to a continuum with "unh", belches, etc. at the far end. > > Okay, but I deny that "ui" is a prearranged signal for me to use to > > communicate to you that I'm happy. Rather, "ui" is a conventional > > part of my behaviour; it's what I say when I'm happy. > > Is it really? Did the idea come spontaneously forth from your childhood > habits? Or did you read about it in a book? Shall we now argue the > definition of "pre-arranged"? Selmaho UI was created, not discovered. Sure. That just means that you have acquired a behavioral habit deliberately, not that it is not a behavioral habit. Most of us have the habit of brushing our teeth in the morning, but we deliberately acquired this habit. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --_The Hobbit_