From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sat Feb 09 09:08:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 17:08:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 67597 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 17:08:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 17:08:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.189) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 17:08:25 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:08:25 -0800 Received: from 200.69.6.28 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 17:08:25 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: tautologies Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 17:08:25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2002 17:08:25.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[62B9B500:01C1B18C] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.28] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 la pycyn cusku di'e >But {xukau >brode} is an indirect question, so not even close to a tautology marker. I >know that ther has been a lot of fiddling with {kau}, but none of the moves >would seem to justify this particular step. Expatiate. I don't remember what you thought of: mi ta te vecnu ije makau ta jdima I buy it, whatever be its price. Which naturally leads to: mi ta te vecnu ije xukau ta kargu I buy it, whetherever it be expensive. You might want to add some kind of causality connector instead of a simple {ije}, but the second sentence is still a tautology. In English you can say tautological things like "it costs whatever it costs", which one could lojbanize as "ta se jdima makau", but it is hard to find a tautology operator to do a complete proposition. We can try to fake it as in: "either it is raining or it is not", but then Stephen Belknap may want to say that sometimes it is neither quite raining nor quite not raining, so that the proposed tautology is turned into a claim that there is no third possibility (and thus is no longer a tautology). {xukau carvi} does not admit that, because it covers whatever intermediate answers {xu carvi} may have. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com