From pycyn@aol.com Wed Feb 13 01:29:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 13 Feb 2002 09:29:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 83518 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 09:29:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2002 09:29:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 09:29:47 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.d6.1226e5bc (4068) for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:29:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:29:44 EST Subject: RE: [lojban] tautologies To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_alt_boundary" --part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2002 1:01:28 PM Central Standard Time, xod@sixgirls.org writes: > I thought the subjunctive referred to hypothetical worlds. That is one way to do it, but hardly helpful, since there is precious little agreement about how to refer to hypothetical worlds or otherwise deal with them. <"costs what it costs" is a tautology, carrying no logical content about the price, but rather indicating emphasis. Classic application for modal selbri:> It should be, but literal translations into Lojban are not tautologies. And the form wanted is still "whatever it may cost" which is subjunctive again -- in English and Spanish, at least. "Pricely I will buy it" doesn't bring much to mind -- and sounds like I wouldrather buy it expensive than cheap. It might do if emphasis is all that is needed. {ckinytadji. "related/relative method"? Well, the point of the original seems to be that there is no function relating the two -- which may be the point of the "no definition" phrase here. But this is equally true of a claim that I would NOT buy, whatever it cost or take it even if it were given away. I don't get it, and if all the good stufff goes there, what will be left here? --part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2002 1:01:28 PM Central Standard Time, xod@sixgirls.org writes:

I thought the subjunctive referred to hypothetical worlds.

That is one way to do it, but hardly helpful, since there is precious little agreement about how to refer to hypothetical worlds or otherwise deal with them.

<"costs what it costs" is a tautology, carrying no logical content about
the price, but rather indicating emphasis. Classic application for modal
selbri:>

It should be, but literal translations into Lojban are not tautologies. And the form wanted is still "whatever it may cost" which is subjunctive again -- in English and Spanish, at least.

<fi'o jdima fe'u vecnu ta mi>

"Pricely I will buy it" doesn't bring much to mind -- and sounds like I wouldrather buy it expensive than cheap. It might do if emphasis is all that is needed.

<And of course, the ckinytadji way:

fancu lo velvecnu le jei mi tervecnu kei nodada'o
(My buying of it is orthogonal to its price)>

{ckinytadji. "related/relative method"?
Well, the point of the original seems to be that there is no function relating the two -- which may be the point of the "no definition" phrase here. But this is equally true of a claim that I would NOT buy, whatever it cost or take it even if it were given away.

<META: I suggest that this discussion move to jboske.>

I don't get it, and if all the good stufff goes there, what will be left here?

--part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_alt_boundary-- --part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd01.mx.aol.com (rly-xd01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.166]) by air-xd01.mail.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILINXD16-0212140129; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:01:28 -0500 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by rly-xd01.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD18-0212140116; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:01:16 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-13266-1013540463-pycyn=aol.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Feb 2002 19:01:04 -0000 X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 12 Feb 2002 19:01:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 97179 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 19:01:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Feb 2002 19:01:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (216.27.131.50) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 19:01:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1CJ11R28954; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:01:01 -0500 (EST) To: jboske@yahoogroups.com Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Invent Yourself X-Yahoo-Profile: throwing_back_the_apple MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:01:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [lojban] tautologies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Jorge Llambias wrote: > >This seems to be the kind of thing that would translate well to Lojban. > > Doing subjunctive in Lojban is even harder than in English. > English at least has a remnant of one. I thought the subjunctive referred to hypothetical worlds. > >Could it be something like {ko'a noi leke'a jdima cu jdima ke'a zo'u > >vecnu ri mi}? > > I would do that in Spanish as: > > "Eso, que cuesta lo que cuesta, lo compro." > "That thing, which costs what it costs, I buy it." "costs what it costs" is a tautology, carrying no logical content about the price, but rather indicating emphasis. Classic application for modal selbri: fi'o jdima fe'u vecnu ta mi And of course, the ckinytadji way: fancu lo velvecnu le jei mi tervecnu kei nodada'o (My buying of it is orthogonal to its price) -- META: I suggest that this discussion move to jboske. -- The tao that can be tar(1)ed is not the entire Tao. The path that can be specified is not the Full Path. To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --part1_d6.1226e5bc.299b8c08_boundary--