From pycyn@aol.com Wed Feb 13 18:37:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 14 Feb 2002 02:37:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 36120 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 02:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2002 02:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 02:37:45 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.104.10f56dc1 (4050) for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:37:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <104.10f56dc1.299c7ce1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:37:21 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Question, direct, indirect and spurious (was Lojban Tautologies ... To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_104.10f56dc1.299c7ce1_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_104.10f56dc1.299c7ce1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/13/2002 6:40:07 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > than {ro da zo'u ganai da jdima ta gi mi te vecnu ta} -- > >a > >much clearer or less controversial form. > > That only works with the intended meaning if it applies to all > worlds, not just the real one. As a statement about the real > world, it does not say what I would do if the price were other > than what it is in this world. Something that "whatever the price" > does say. > Well, if the price is not something in this world, then it cannot be the price in this world, so that is not a problem. If you want transworld claims (and it is not clear that that is what the "may" amounts to) then you can set this into a transworld context -- as soon as we have some solid agreement about how to do that. Nor is it clear that a coherent version of your strange creation would solve the problem, for what beyond this world is going to count as a reasonable answer to the question? On the other hand, it is hard to see what move across worlds will add. Something from another world, if describable in Lojban, is a perfectly good instatiation here. To be sure, such a critter could not be an invalidating case -- one where it was the price and yet I would not buy -- in the {ganai} form. But it could be in the {va'o} form which probably the easiest and surest transworld format. --part1_104.10f56dc1.299c7ce1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/13/2002 6:40:07 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


than {ro da zo'u ganai da jdima ta gi mi te vecnu ta} --
>a
>much clearer or less controversial form.

That only works with the intended meaning if it applies to all
worlds, not just the real one. As a statement about the real
world, it does not say what I would do if the price were other
than what it is in this world. Something that "whatever the price"
does say.


Well, if the price is not something in this world, then it cannot be the price in this world, so that is not a problem. If you want transworld claims (and it is not clear that that is what the "may" amounts to) then you can set this into a transworld context -- as soon as we have some solid agreement about how to do that.  Nor is it clear that a coherent version of your strange creation would solve the problem, for what beyond this world is going to count as a reasonable answer to the question?

On the other hand, it is hard to see what move across worlds will add.  Something from another world, if describable in Lojban, is a perfectly good instatiation here.  To be sure, such a critter could not be an invalidating case -- one where it was the price and yet I would not buy -- in the {ganai} form.  But it could be in the {va'o} form which  probably the easiest and surest transworld format. --part1_104.10f56dc1.299c7ce1_boundary--