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To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Reversing Tanru (was: Non-logical AND in Tanru?)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:08:47 -0700
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From: EWC <thanatos@dim.com>
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On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:37:22 EST, pycyn@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 2/14/2002 12:01:27 PM Central Standard Time,=20
>thanatos@dim.com writes:
>> 1. ta melbi je nixli ckule
>> 2. ta ckule co melbi je nixli
>> 3. melbi je nixli co ckule befa ta

>> 4. ckule befa ta melbi je nixli

>I would have thought that this needed {co}, unless you really want {ckule}=
=20
>modifying {melba je nixli}. If that is what you want, then neither 3 nor =
4=20
>are at all like 1 and 2.

I would have thought that tanru are reversible as long as you drag along
the appropriate sumti with "be".

If I am going to a cinema, then the following tanru are nearly identical
save for emphasis:

1. mi skina klama
2. zo'e skina co klama befa mi

To say that I, a goer, am somehow related to some cinema is also to say
that some cinema is somehow related to me, a goer.

>And indeed not readily comprehended: "lo, a this-is-a-school type of=20
>beautiful thing and girl." It is somewhat easier without the {be fa ta}.

The emphasis is changed if you switch the seltau and tertau, but the
underlying relations expressed don't change. {ckule nixli} is a direct
translation of "schoolgirl", and while not the best translation isn't
false. A schoolgirl is a girl and related to something which is a
school. {melbi nixli} doesn't need any handwaving. So, {melbi je nixli
co ckule befa ta}, could be spontaneously uttered for "Hey look, a cute
girl, of that school."

In that way "co" can be used to add essentially an entire related bridi
in afterthought.

{mi le zdani cu klama co ragve le rirxe le ckule}

That may not be an academic use of "co", but it's useful in
conversation.

--=20
EWC