Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Non-logical AND in Tanru?

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:01:17 EST

In a message dated 2/14/2002 5:03:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
[email-masked] writes:

> Oh, that's what started the whole argument. Are the {lo melbi}
> necessarily identical with the {lo nixli} or not? Most respondents have
> stated they are, because {ta nixli je melbi} is definitively referring
> to something that is both nixli and melbi, and therefore {ta melbi je
> nixli ckule} is referring to pretty-girls only.

Two different things seem to have gotten mixed together here. 
In {ta nixli je melba vau}, they pretty much have (I think) to be the same 
thing. It can't be expanded other than to {ta nixli gi'e melba} (more or 
less -- expansion isn't the whole of interpretation but it goes a long way). 
But in {ta nixli je melba ckule}, at least three sources have reasonable 
plausibility: {ta nixli ckule ije ta melba ckule}, {ta ckule fi lo nixli je 
melba} and {ta ckule fi lo nixli ije ta ckule fi lo melba}. In the middle 
case, I think tht the nixli and the melba have to be the same, in the other 
two cases, not (indeed, the identity of what is the nixli in the case of 
{nixli ckule} is itself ambiguous -- ditto the melba (one is, in fact case 
three)). 
So, as a modifier, {nixli je melba} is a good deal more diverse, potentially, 
than is as a modified, and the constant switching ack and forth that you do 
(presumably mirroring the earlier discussion in the beginners list, tends to 
confuse the two.

<I would have thought that tanru are reversible as long as you drag along
the appropriate sumti with "be".

If I am going to a cinema, then the following tanru are nearly identical
save for emphasis:

1. mi skina klama
2. zo'e skina co klama befa mi

To say that I, a goer, am somehow related to some cinema is also to say
that some cinema is somehow related to me, a goer.>

And here may be the source of the rest (or another large piece) of the 
problem. Tanru are generally NOT reversible, the modifier-modified 
relationship is asymmetric,. Sentence 1 above is about going of a particular 
sort -- to the flix, presumably (though it might be in the flix or whatever). 
Sentence 2 is a flick, apparenty the kind I go to (or the kind I go in 
or...). 1 asserts that I go in a certain way, sentence says that something 
is a certain kind of movie. I suppose there is a relation between the two 
but it is not anywhere in the same city (let alone ball park) as meaning the 
same except for emphasis.

<The emphasis is changed if you switch the seltau and tertau, but the
underlying relations expressed don't change. {ckule nixli} is a direct
translation of "schoolgirl", and while not the best translation isn't
false. A schoolgirl is a girl and related to something which is a
school. {melbi nixli} doesn't need any handwaving. So, {melbi je nixli
co ckule befa ta}, could be spontaneously uttered for "Hey look, a cute
girl, of that school.">

Pretty much flatly "No." The only thing that is wrong with {ckule nixli} for
"schoolgirl" is that it could be several other things as well (although 
"school

-girl" is not unambifuous either).
Actually, {melbi nixli} is no less problematic than {ckule nixli}, it is 
just that it fits are English habits better (we take {melba} to be an 
adjective and {nixli} a noun) but it could equally refer a girl of a 
beautiful age or one immature by a beautiful standard, and that is just 
getting started. As for the last bit, that is not hopelessly off track, but 
it does not note that the "cute" part is also related to "that-is-a-school" 
(not "that school," which {levi ckule} and would need {me} for this 
construction). It is not clear what "a that-is-a-school kind of beautiful 
thing" -- nor a "that-is-a-school kind of girl" either (a girl who says such 
obvious things as "That is a school"? Doh!)

<In that way "co" can be used to add essentially an entire related bridi
in afterthought.

{mi le zdani cu klama co ragve le rirxe le ckule}

That may not be an academic use of "co", but it's useful in
conversation.>

There are some ways to add to tanru in afterthought mode; {co} just allows 
belated modifiers and I don't remember how to add other pieces, aside from 
erasing back and starting over, but I think there are some ways. However, 
your example is modifier added, so not a problem -- of that sort. What 
"across the river from the school going" might be is unclear: it is pretty 
clearly not crossing the river. I would suppose that it means that my route 
home is on the other side of the river from the school, but don't feel very 
comfortable about taht. What did you intend?