From pycyn@aol.com Fri Mar 01 06:22:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:22:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 56022 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:22:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:22:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:22:04 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.5f.23484aa9 (4529) for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:22:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5f.23484aa9.29b0e888@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:22:00 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [jboske] RE: Anything but tautologies To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_5f.23484aa9.29b0e888_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_5f.23484aa9.29b0e888_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/2002 8:03:13 PM Central Standard Time, rob@twcny.rr.com writes: > > Then what the fatal fandango is the way to refer to the letter "a"? Or > the > > numeral "1", to get back to the point? > > {me'o abu} and {me'o pa} respectively. > But letters are not (or are only incidentally) mathematical expressions, why ship them off to that Siberia -- where few have dared to go? And those who have declare it a vast wasteland, without charm or useful resources. Well, its not clear that "John" has any use outside of cmene, but "1" is used in all sorts of non-mathematical contexts -- how is it referred to then? How say that it is the character on the next to northwestmost key of the keyborad, say? <> > > Not even the "1" key on a keyboard? Like all those other guys that are > something with a {bu} tucked on the end? No system at all? Lots of people seem to have the impression that "bu" means a more abstract representation of a numeral or letteral. No.> A what? A letter or a numeral is pretty abstact already, given the presistent token-type ambiguity. And what then could be more abstract than a letter-type and still be said to be a letter at all? <"bu" takes any Lojban word, regardless of whether it is a lerfu, and makes a lerfu out of it. There's a convention that if you take a lerfu and add "bu", you get some lerfu that resembles the one you started with - hence "vybu" is "w" - but this is not a rule. And the result of "bu" is always another lerfu, and when used alone lerfu are always pronouns (or variables). So "pabu" might be a variable named "1", but it is not the number "1".> I can see that the convention making {abu}, say, a variable could conflict its being the name of a letter, though we rarely talk about letters so the chances of conflict are small. And, on those occasions when the distinction needs to be made, some device (does {la abu} parse?) would have to be employed, contrary to intuition. But this kind of systemic ambiguity that is now said to be doctrine is pretty much at variance with the clear intention of otherparts of the language -- the shift keys, for example. < "Prime" could be {na'u selyli'e}, but since this is quite verbose I think there would be a case for an experimental cmavo.> Well, that is for "successor", not "prime," and we could even then probably get along withou the {na'u} part. Cowan: <"N second", of course. "Prime" is not the name of the mark, it just means "first" here.> Oddly, it is the name of the mark: (Am Her) n6: "A mark (') written above and to the right of a letter in order to distinguish it from the same letter already in use or to designate a related quantity or thing, as feet, minutes of angle, or minutes of time" Just what is the character "1" if not the numeral "1"? Numerals are characters used to represent numbers. Or do we have to introduce yet another level of something (abstraction?) into our ontology? It is a function with an odd representation, perhaps. But won't {ny y'ybu} turn into some weird combination of a variable and character? I think there is a serious type confusion at the heart of this whole process and hope someone will sort it out soon, so I can have spelling bees. --part1_5f.23484aa9.29b0e888_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/2002 8:03:13 PM Central Standard Time, rob@twcny.rr.com writes:


> Then what the fatal fandango is the way to refer to the letter "a"?  Or the
> numeral "1", to get back to the point?

{me'o abu} and {me'o pa} respectively.


But letters are not (or are only incidentally) mathematical expressions, why ship them off to that Siberia -- where few have dared to go?  And those who have declare it a vast wasteland, without charm or useful resources.

<So, what is the numeral "1" OUTSIDE MEX?

I don't know. What is the name "John" outside cmene?>

Well, its not clear that "John" has any use outside of cmene, but "1" is used in all sorts of non-mathematical contexts -- how is it referred to then?  How say that it is the character on the next to northwestmost key of the keyborad, say?

<> <It is not yet defined to mean anything in particular.>
>
> Not even the "1" key on a keyboard?  Like all those other guys that are
> something with a {bu} tucked on the end?  No system at all?

Lots of people seem to have the impression that "bu" means a more
abstract representation of a numeral or letteral. No.>

A what?  A letter or a numeral is pretty abstact already, given the presistent token-type ambiguity.  And what then could be more abstract than a letter-type and still be said to be a letter at all?

<"bu" takes any Lojban word, regardless of whether it is a lerfu, and
makes a lerfu out of it. There's a convention that if you take a lerfu
and add "bu", you get some lerfu that resembles the one you started with
- hence "vybu" is "w" - but this is not a rule.
And the result of "bu" is always another lerfu, and when used alone
lerfu are always pronouns (or variables).

So "pabu" might be a variable named "1", but it is not the number "1".>

I can see that the convention making {abu}, say, a variable could conflict its being the name of a letter, though we rarely talk about letters so the chances of conflict are small. And, on those occasions when the distinction needs to be made, some device (does {la abu} parse?) would have to be employed, contrary to intuition.  But this kind of systemic ambiguity that is now said to be doctrine is pretty much at variance with the clear intention of otherparts of the language -- the shift keys, for example.

<<I won?t even ask how to define {n?} general in Lojban...>
"Prime" could be {na'u selyli'e}, but since this is quite verbose I
think there would be a case for an experimental cmavo.>

Well, that is for "successor", not "prime," and we could even then probably get along withou the {na'u} part.

Cowan:
<"N second", of course.  "Prime" is not the name of the mark,
it just means "first" here.>

Oddly, it is the name of the mark: (Am Her) n6: "A mark (') written above and to the right of a letter in order to distinguish it from the same letter already in use or to designate a related quantity or thing, as feet, minutes of angle, or minutes of time"

<Things with "bu" are letters or symbols.  You *could* use pabu for
the character "1" (as distinct from the numeral "1"); I merely said
that there is no authoritative rule to that effect.>

Just what is the character "1" if not the numeral "1"? Numerals are characters used to represent numbers.  Or do we have to introduce yet another level of something (abstraction?) into our ontology?

<I don't think of n' as applying a function; it's just a name that
happens to be typographically a little odd.  Using ny. .y'y.bu is
fine too.>

It is a function with an odd representation, perhaps.  But won't {ny y'ybu} turn into some weird combination of a variable and character?  I think there is a serious type confusion at the heart of this whole process and hope someone will sort it out soon, so I can have spelling bees.






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