From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Mon Mar 04 06:51:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 4 Mar 2002 14:51:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 94479 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2002 14:51:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2002 14:51:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2002 14:51:34 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:24:37 +0000 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:51:20 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:50:54 +0000 To: lojban Subject: RE: sets, masses, &c. (was: RE: [lojban] Re: [jboske] RE: Anything but tautol... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810630 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin >>> Jorge Llambias 03/04/02 02:19am >>> #la and cusku di'e #>Hence if we did want to distinguish between a bowl #>full of apple and a bowl full of apples, I would suggest making #>the first be full of lei apple and the second full of le'i apple. # #I think that the answer is that {lo plixe pesxu} is not {lo plise} #nor {loi plise}. The notion of {plise} incorporates shape and peel, #it is not just about a kind of material, so {lei plise} consists #of complete apples. That may be the best answer. Consider: a broken vase is still a vase,=20 though it is less of a vase than an unbroken one, and as it gets more and=20 more broken there will come a point where it ceases to count as a vase. So= =20 likewise, if you cut an apple in half, it can still be seen as an apple, albeit one with deviant shape. If you then cut 5 apples in half and put them in a bowl, you could then call them lei (mu) plise. OTOH if all you know is that the bowl contains 10 apple halves, from an unknown number of apples (anywhere between 5 and 10), then it would follow from your position that these are not lei plise. Anyway, 2 further questions: 1. How DO you say "apple" (as in "the bowl was full of apple") in Lojban? 2. Why do we insist on understanding lV'i gadri to refer to pure sets rather than to groups/teams? What is to be gained from this? --And.