From pycyn@aol.com Thu Mar 07 01:23:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 7 Mar 2002 09:23:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 63843 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2002 19:52:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Mar 2002 19:52:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Mar 2002 19:52:34 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.41.19675157 (2615) for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:52:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <41.19675157.29b7cd7a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:52:26 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [jboske] Quantifiers, Existential Import To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_41.19675157.29b7cd7a_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_41.19675157.29b7cd7a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/6/2002 1:29:00 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > The same reasoning applies to O-: Plainly no set P can have > an intersection with 0 that is different from 0, so we can > deduce that S /= 0 and to assert anything useful we need O+. > > (I don't buy this argument, it is possible to give information > both with I- and with O-, it is just that this presentation > with sets already requires I+ and O+, and the same happens > in Lojban when {su'o} is defined as "at least one".) > O- is "SP/=S OR S=0". Again the two parts are mutually exclusive, so you get that some number (from 0 up) Ss are non-Ps, so this is as uniformative about non-Ps as I- is about Ps -- as it should be. So, these guys are not likely to have a lot of use and we might want to allow that {su'o da} is as importing as {su'o broda}, saving the weird forms for the weird cases (equally in either format). --part1_41.19675157.29b7cd7a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/6/2002 1:29:00 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


The same reasoning applies to O-: Plainly no set P can have
an intersection with 0 that is different from 0, so we can
deduce that S /= 0 and to assert anything useful we need O+.

(I don't buy this argument, it is possible to give information
both with I- and with O-, it is just that this presentation
with sets already requires I+ and O+, and the same happens
in Lojban when {su'o} is defined as "at least one".)


O- is "SP/=S OR S=0".  Again the two parts are mutually exclusive, so you get that some number (from 0 up) Ss are non-Ps, so this is as uniformative about non-Ps as I- is about Ps -- as it should be. 
So, these guys are not likely to have a lot of use and we might want to allow that {su'o da} is as importing as {su'o broda}, saving the weird forms for the weird cases (equally in either format).  --part1_41.19675157.29b7cd7a_boundary--