From pycyn@aol.com Sat Mar 09 10:22:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 9 Mar 2002 18:22:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 55480 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2002 18:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Mar 2002 18:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 2002 18:22:48 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.197.370e733 (17378) for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 13:22:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <197.370e733.29bbacf3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 13:22:43 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [jboske] Quantifiers, Existential Import, and all that stuff To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_197.370e733.29bbacf3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra --part1_197.370e733.29bbacf3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/8/2002 8:46:49 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > The only differences (pc will correct me if there are any more) > are that for me {ro broda} is equivalent to {ro da poi broda} > and {no broda} is equivalent to {no da poi broda}, i.e. they > don't have existential import, whereas for pc these are not > equivalent. > > For pc {ro broda} is equivalent to {ro lo su'o broda}, i.e. it > has existential import, and similarly {no broda} is equivalent > to {no lo su'o broda}. > > Other than that, I think we agree on everything. > I think we need to go back a step. Where we basically disagree is on whether {ro} by itself has existential import. I say it does (and say that its having it is firmly built into Lojban and logic); xorxes says it does not. It is from that fact that xorxes derives that {ro lo su'o broda} is different from {ro lo ro broda} and that the second allows that the set of broda might be empty and yet sentences containing it not be treated as cases of illicit reference. This then does result in his {ro lo ro broda} being equivalent to {ro da poi broda}. And so on, though {su'o lo ro broda} does apparently have existential import, so the principle involved in these assignments is not everywhere clear. We can put this bit up on the wiki or we can wait until the issue is settled (after only 25 years) and see to it that the official line gets out to everyone. --part1_197.370e733.29bbacf3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/8/2002 8:46:49 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


The only differences (pc will correct me if there are any more)
are that for me {ro broda} is equivalent to {ro da poi broda}
and {no broda} is equivalent to {no da poi broda}, i.e. they
don't have existential import, whereas for pc these are not
equivalent.

For pc {ro broda} is equivalent to {ro lo su'o broda}, i.e. it
has existential import, and similarly {no broda} is equivalent
to {no lo su'o broda}.

Other than that, I think we agree on everything.


I think we need to go back a step.  Where we basically disagree is on whether {ro} by itself has existential import. I say it does (and say that its having it is firmly built into Lojban and logic); xorxes says it does not.  It is from that fact that xorxes derives that {ro lo su'o broda} is different from {ro lo ro broda} and that the second allows that the set of broda might be empty and yet sentences containing it not be treated as cases of illicit reference.  This then does result in his {ro lo ro broda} being equivalent to {ro da poi broda}.  And so on, though {su'o lo ro broda} does apparently have existential import, so the principle involved in these assignments is not everywhere clear.

We can put this bit up on the wiki or we can wait until the issue is settled (after only 25 years) and see to it that the official line gets out to everyone. --part1_197.370e733.29bbacf3_boundary--