From mark@xxx.xxxx Tue Sep 28 18:00:54 1999 X-Digest-Num: 247 Message-ID: <44114.247.1362.959273825@eGroups.com> Date: 29 Sep 1999 01:00:54 -0000 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" From: "Adam Raizen" >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:53:20 +0200 > >From: "Adam Raizen" > >I would suggest "tri'iki". I realize that it doesn't look much like most >languages pronunciation or spelling of Turkey, but since it's of the >form CCVVCV, and so conforms to the rafsi fu'ivla proposal in >section 16 of chapter 4 of the href grammar, I think it works best. FWIW, I'm not at all sanguine about Stage 4 fu'ivla pretty much ever, at this point in the language (and possibly ever, period). Lojban's tricky enough with lujvo and rafsi and contextually-defined cmene; I'd rather not add fu'ivla (which have place structures and all) to the mix without at least flagging them with a classifier rafsi. So to me, {gugdrturki,e} or {kulnrturki,e} is just fine, as appropriate (or {jectrturki,e}, etc). If you don't like the comma, fine, use the diphthong, whatever. If you need lujvo from those (which is stretching it; tanru should do in most cases) there's always {zei}. In fact, a fair amount of the time you can even make do with just the cmene and {zei}. So to me, even a correct and well-chosen Stage 4 fu'ivla is still not something I'd want to see. >Using "i'i" as the two consonants may not be as recognizable at >first glance as "u'u", but if the sound in Turkish is the same as >French u (IPA [y]), it should definitely be i, since [y] is a valid >allophone for the letter i. This may not look exactly like most other >languages, but this often happens when learning another language. Still, even Turks are used to seeing "Turkey" (or "Turk*") in just about every other Latin-alphabet orthography. That can't be a coincidence; /y/ is close to /i/ in other languages as well. Between that and the metathesis (ok, is the accent on the second of third syllable in that word??) of the /r/, the word is pretty hard to recognize. Particularly dangerous in a word not canonized in "official" lists. >The last letter could be either "i" or "e"; I chose "i" because then it >matches the other vowels and creates a sort of a vowel harmony >(though not in the Turkish sense, I realize). In any event, it doesn't >really matter since rafsi fu'ivla aren't supposed to differ only in the >last letter. Fair enough, but note that {o} is the traditional ending for cultural brivla in Lojban. ~mark