Subject: Re: [lojban] More about quantifiers

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:14:11

la pycyn cusku di'e

>I seemed
>to ahve replied that it was too ugly to use; yet I like {me'iro}. Tastes
>change? Maybe not; I still think {da'asu'o} is too ugly to use.

I prefer {me'iro} too, but not based purely on taste. For one
thing, it is shorter, but more importantly, the {da'a} form
really belongs to the complement series:

da'aro = no
da'ano = ro
da'asu'o = me'iro
da'ame'iro = su'o

Of course, ideally we should have a single word for {me'iro}.
Otherwise, to make things more symmetrical we'd have to use
{za'uno} instead of {su'o}:

da'aro = no
da'ano = ro
da'aza'uno = me'iro
da'ame'iro = za'uno

>Moving negations around.
>
>mine: Drop initial {naku}
> exchange {Q da poi broda} and {Q broda}
> exchange Q as above
> internal {naku} as above

The "exchange {Q da poi broda} and {Q broda}" bit is the ugly
step for me. When {broda} is a complex bridi, this may mean
adding lots of be-bei's and possibly having to do internal
rearrangments if {ke'a} is not the first sumti. It sounds like
a simple rule, but in practice it is not. It removes the
freedom to use the {poi} form as a stylistic variant, which
is all it is in my version.

>The other negation movings are the same, mutatis mutandis. (I should note
>that, given his usage, xorxes may have some trouble coming up with 
>reasonable
>I- and O- forms, since, whatever you may think about {le ro broda}, {lo 
>su'o
>broda} pretty clearly cannot be empty.)

The {lo su'o broda} forms in my system are just convenient
shortcuts. The full fledged forms will add {ganai da broda gi}
in front of the corresponding + form.

>Admittedly, then, in an ideal xorxes system my rules would be a whole step
>more complicated.

It's not the quantity of steps that matter, it's their quality.
Having {Q broda} mean something different from {Q da poi broda}
causes a lot of unnecessary complications.

>I think that extra effort is worth it to be able to tell
>at a glance that a setence has existential import.

I'm not sure it buys you even that. Just hide a negation a
bit and at least for me it is not something you can tell at
a glance:

no broda me'iro da poi brode cu brodi

Does that have existential import for brode? Can you really
tell at a glance?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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