From opoudjis@optushome.com.au Sat Mar 30 00:16:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 30 Mar 2002 08:16:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 64181 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2002 08:16:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Mar 2002 08:16:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail025.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.147) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Mar 2002 08:16:52 -0000 Received: from [210.49.154.210] (c17097.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.154.210]) by mail025.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g2U8Gov03247 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:16:50 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: opoudjis@mail.optushome.com.au Message-Id: Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:53:47 +1100 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: ce'u once again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" From: Nick Nicholas X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90350612 X-Yahoo-Profile: opoudjis Sorry to scratch old wounds, but I'm revising the lessons now that I've got a spare couple of days, and inevitably my discussion of {ka} comes up for review. I'd like people to have a look at it, now tempers have died down, and tell me if they think it coheres. In particular, a reviewer suggested to me that I can't claim a property applying to a specific individual is a fact, with the example "Fred's illness is more debilitating than George's". I agree, but would content 'illness' here is neither a fact nor a quality, but a state (i.e. an event); and if this was a non-stative event, like running (Fred's running is more debilitating than George's), we wouldn't even think this involved a quality. But then I tried to render the statement in Lojban, and I wonder if I've gotten myself in knots: lenu la fred. bilma cu zmadu lenu la djordj. bilma kei leka ce'u rinka leka zo'e ruble That's the version I'm putting in the lesson. But of course, the value of zo'e is dependent on ce'u: it's the person who is ill. Does it make sense to say lenu la fred. bilma cu zmadu lenu la djordj. bilma kei leka ce'u rinka leka ce'u ruble? Is this instead one of the instances of {makau} I've heard of? lenu la fred. bilma cu zmadu lenu la djordj. bilma kei leka ce'u rinka leka makau ruble? Do we go clever and say lenu la fred. bilma cu zmadu lenu la djordj. bilma kei leka ce'uxipa goi tu'a ce'uxire rinka leka ce'uxire ruble? ... or what? -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr Nick Nicholas. The Nonce and Future Henry Squirrel was thirsty. He Linguist. University of Melbourne. walked over to the river bank opoudjis@optushome.com.au where his good friend Bill Bird nickn@unimelb.edu.au was sitting. Henry slipped and http://www.opoudjis.net fell in the river. Gravity drowned. --- TALE-SPIN Story Generator, James Meehan, Yale AI Lab, 1975.