Subject: Re: [lojban] ce'u once again

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:42:51 EST

In a message dated 4/4/2002 12:35:33 AM Central Standard Time, 
[email-masked] writes:

> I think 'gasnu' is the most general predicate for causation, and it
> works with all kinds of things. However, if you disagree, change it to
> 'rinka', it's not the important point.
> 

gasnu: x1 [person/agent] is an agentive cause of event x2; x1 does/brings 
about x2
rinka: x1 (event/state) effects/physically causes effect x2 (event/state) 
under conditions x3

It's not a matter of generality, but rather of types of causation: {gasnu} 
needs agents, {rinka} states.

<> > le te bilma be la fred le te bilma be la djordj. cu zmadu le ka
ce'u blegau
> > le bilma be le nei

>In the first it seems to be
> the disease but comes out as a symptom 

'nei' refers to the current bridi, and so 'le nei' refers to the x1 of
blegau in each case. Selbri are not bridi, but if you want to be
obstinate and insist that they are, change 'le nei' to 'cy.'>

OK, what you meant was {le bilma be fi le nei}, as several other places. The 
problem with {nei} is that it is in three bridi (in some sense of that term) 
and there is then the question of which is the "current" one. You say it is 
the middle one of the three and the closest one that is not an immediate 
sumti, so I take it that your definition of "current" comes down to that 
specification. That seems a good choice, but not an obvious one. I don't 
understand the remark about selbri -- they are obviously not bridi, but you 
can scarcely have bridi without them -- or them without bridi.

<> I suppose you mean {la fred la djordj cu zmadu le du'u ce'u ralju le
cecmu be
> cy}, which is technically a 1-place predicate. If you do mean the
second
> {ce'u} then it is a free floating variable that makes the whole
rather
> obscure, being essentially universal (relevance conditions
assumed) -- but
> what I had in mind. What is the trick it is supposed to cutely do?

No, I meant that it would imply the predicate 'la fred ralju le cecmu
be la djordj.'; however, as you say, a 2-place property with 'zmadu'
is obscure. I still don't know what you had in mind. Sticking to
1-place in x3 of 'zmadu' would certainly be best.>

It would imply that predication -- among countless others. So, yes, {zmadu} 
is easiest to interpret with a one-place predicate, but it is not restricted 
to that to the point requiring it.