From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Mon Apr 15 06:15:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 15 Apr 2002 13:15:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 71203 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2002 13:15:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2002 13:15:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2002 13:15:47 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:47:40 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:15:28 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:15:00 +0100 To: rizen , lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] x2 of 'le' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810630 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Ted Reed: #If I've learned it correctly, 'le' basically means "that/those which is/ar= e=20 #described as ..." What it doesn't specify is who describes it as that.=20 The key elements of the semantics of "le" are: (a) specificity. This means that the truth value of the utterance cannot be decided until the referent has been identified. Loosely, the speaker has a a specific referent in mind. (b) the description within the sumti is not part of the truthconditions of the main bridi; it is an incidental description made by the speaker, usually to help the addressee identify the referent. #Take this example: # #ko'a's cousin (goi ko'e) met a girl (goi ko'i) that reminds ko'e of ko'a.= =20 #Ko'e tells ko'a about ko'i, and says that ko'a should meet ko'i. Part of t= he=20 #information imparted to ko'a by ko'e is that ko'i speaks lojban, so when=20 #ko'a meets ko'i, ko'a wants to be cute and say in lojban: "So you're the=20 #one my cousin described as the hot redhead." # #So is there any way of specifying the source of a description already, or= =20 #should we look into making an x2 to 'le'? Either ko'a needs to be explicit and use a selbri for 'describe'. or else ko'a could say "do du le cute redhead", and leave it for the addressee to infer that ko'a is speaking echoically, echoing the description given by ko'e. --And.