From robin@BILKENT.EDU.TR Mon Apr 29 16:03:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robin@real-time.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Apr 2002 23:03:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 32684 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2002 22:03:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2002 22:03:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost.localdomain) (139.179.111.30) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2002 22:03:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g3TNFMG01822 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 02:15:22 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: Subject: Re: [lojban] What's the logic behind Lojban's sound system? Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 02:15:21 +0300 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <02042922572600.01165@localhost.localdomain> <02042917013207.01998@neofelis> In-Reply-To: <02042917013207.01998@neofelis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02043002152100.01807@localhost.localdomain> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Robin Turner Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810606 X-Yahoo-Profile: digambaranath On Tuesday 30 April 2002 00:01, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 29 April 2002 15:57, Robin Turner wrote: > > On Monday 29 April 2002 18:44, And Rosta wrote: > > > #>The phonology of /'/ and /@/, where /@/ = buffer vowel is so stupid > > > #>-- so unlike anything in natlangs -- that it is simply indefensible. > > > > I don't know about that. Colloquial Turkish uses a short "i" (that's an > > English "i", not a Lojban "i"!) or occasionally "ü" to buffer foreign > > words, e.g. "film" is often pronounced "filim" and "studyo", "sütüdyo". > > The buffer vowel is something used by foreigners when pronouncing Lojban, > not by jbopre when pronouncing foreign words. The latter is usually /y/ in > cmene; fu'ivla (which can't contain "y") add other vowels, change voicing > or other features of consonants, etc. > > So would you insert "ü" or "I" as a buffer vowel? What are some Lojban > words that are hard for Turks to pronounce? I don't know for sure, since I don't know any native speaker Turkish Lojbanists. "Pure" Turkish tends not to go in for initial consonant pairs, except for (lojban orthography) "dj" and "tc" (which are single letters in Turkish). Educated Turks, who are exposed to more loan-words, generally have no problems with common English consonant clusters (e.g. they pronounce "film" as written, not as "filim"). I think it's more a question of unthinkingly imposing Turkish phonological rules on loan-words - the choice of buffering vowel seems to reflect a desire to conform to vowel harmony. Of course Turks would have as much difficulty as omst of us do with those goddam syllabic "r"s! robin.tr