From a-rosta@alphaphe.com Mon Apr 29 19:52:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: a-rosta@alphaphe.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 30 Apr 2002 02:52:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 8648 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 02:52:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2002 02:52:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.alphaphe.net) (217.33.150.223) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 02:52:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 1646 invoked by uid 101); 30 Apr 2002 02:51:59 -0000 Received: from host213-120-11-69.webport.bt.net (HELO oemcomputer) (213.120.11.69) by smtp.alphaphe.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 02:51:59 -0000 To: "lojban" Subject: RE: [lojban] What's the logic behind Lojban's sound system? Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 03:52:29 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-EDATA: smtp.alphaphe.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AlphaPhe.Net (www.alphaphe.net) From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110020381 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Craig: > >> > #>The phonology of /'/ and /@/, where /@/ = buffer vowel is so stupid > >> > #>-- so unlike anything in natlangs -- that it is simply indefensible. > >> > >> I don't know about that. Colloquial Turkish uses a short "i" (that's an > >> English "i", not a Lojban "i"!) or occasionally "ü" to buffer foreign > words, > >> e.g. "film" is often pronounced "filim" and "studyo", "sütüdyo". > > >The thing I consider stupid is the definition of their realizations > >as "none of the above". The notion of epenthetic vowels is a perfectly > >natural one, which I'm all in favour of. > > ' does not mean 'no other consonant', it means [T] or [h]. I may be wrong, but my recollection is that it is defined as any 'voiceless glide' that is outside the realizational space of any other phoneme. This would make [T] a relatively obvious realization (and [h] a poor one), but not the only one. A lateral fricative would do, for example (unless one wants to quibble on the exact definition of 'glide'). At any rate, "none of the above" -- to put it crudely -- plays a part in the definition of the realization of /'/ and the buffer vowel. --And.