Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban Re: mei (was Pro-Sumti) In-Reply-To F82t69A9gy3Xiz93Fd100006cb6@hot

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:39:52 +0000

la pycyn cusku di'e

>{piro} is no more transparent to negation boundaries or quantifier order 
>than
>{pisu'o} is -- {piro loi broda na brode} = {pisu'o loi broda cu naku brode}

I don't think that's true. The first does entail the second,
but {pisu'o loi broda naku brode} could be true and {piro loi broda
na brode} false. For example:

piro lei bolci na se culno le baktu FALSE
pisu'o lei bolci naku se culno le baktu TRUE

(BTW, you can't have {naku} after {cu}, it is not part of the selbri.)

{piro loi broda} is trasnsparent to negation boundaries because
it is a singular term.

>(I know that you probably allow {piro} on empty masses, but skipping that
>oddity for now -- it just means we have to use the marked forms here).
>And the choice of the default quantifier, it it has any reason other than
>"something has to be default" is likely tied up with the nature of masses
>and thus affects every word that deals with masses.

But it has no other reason than "something has to be default"
as far as I can see.

>On that ground, I think
>that selected masses are different from universal ones -- but Lojban says
>they are not, so all get the same treatment.

Talking about universal masses as a whole only produces
platitudes, that's why having {piro} for them would be
a waste. {pisu'o loi} surely must be more frequent than
{piro loi}. But in the case of {lei}, we normally want to
talk about the whole mass we have in mind. It is exactly
the same thing that happens with {le} and {lo}.

>{ko'a joi ko'e joi ko'i} stands for some mass {lei ...
>[whatever predicate fits exactly these three things]} in a fundamental way
>and thus -- by the admitted rule about implict quantification -- stands for
>some unspecified submass from that set of things (my preferred reading of
>{mei} in any case) . To say it is the whole mass is either to say that the
>default quantifer on {loi} is {piro}, which you don't want, or to say that
>{ko'a joi ko'e joi ko'i} is not equivalent to {loi du be ko'a be'o ja du be
>ko'e be'o ja du be ko'i} (to pick the most boring -- and safest -- unique
>property of this cluster).

Right. It is equivalent instead to {piro loi du be ko'a be'o ja
du be ko'e be'o ja du be ko'i}. Why is that a problem?

>I admit that {le cimei} may be different because I
>can't see any disaster happening if it is -- yet.

And what disaster happens if {joi} is equivalent to {piro loi}?

><<(I have to admit I still don't get how the problem of
>intensionality appears here.)>>
>
>It doesn't yet for me -- I'm doing this to avoid intensionality, remember.
>But if the two masses mention above -- named by {joi}s between its member
>names and the other named as the mass of those which have the property
>uniigue to the things named are different, then the difference between them
>is intensional -- since the set underlying them are identical (or "they 
>have
>exactly the same members").

Is the difference between {piro loi broda} and
{pisu'o loi broda} intensional? Because that's the
difference between the {joi} form and the {pisu'o loi}
form.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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