Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: New Members, Board of Directors, other LogFest results

From: Bob LeChevalier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:27:55 -0400

At 10:39 AM 7/23/02 -0600, Jay wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 03:03:32AM -0400, Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language 
>Group wrote:
> > Attached are the current minutes. I'll have Robin put the prior 
> minutes up
> > on the website, but I'm not sure we'll have that before LogFest.
>
> > >-moving the various lists off yahoo (which may have been rendered moot by
> > >Robin's mirroring, but this remains the only item that was actually
> > >proposed in response to my call for agenda issues in May)
>
>I must've missed that. I'd like to see the delegating of work discussed at
>Logfest. (Not that I'll be there.) In particular, it seems worth noting
>that projects like, say, the dictionary havn't really moved anywhere in
>the last, what, 9 years? Certainly there are extenuating circumstances
>as to why the person(s) currently working on it havn't produced anything,

like a lack of volunteers?

>but it would be nice if the members would at least discuss the possibility
>of farming out some of these projects (like the dictionary) to parties
>who have demonstrated that they can get something accomplished on them.

I'll be honest that part of the reason I've had trouble being motivated to 
work on the dictionary is that even if we get it done, we have no way to 
publish it. Those of you who are more net-based than I can be motivated by 
a net-based dictionary, but content-wise the initial dictionary will not be 
all that far from what is in the current dictionary files (just editing and 
formatting the exiting file, plus adding some of whatever we have time to 
add, is what LogFest decided the first dictionary would be a LONNNG time 
ago.) In that sense, the pretty version you made up IS "the dictionary".

BTW, in formatting the file that you did, YOU have "gotten something done 
on them" more than anyone else has in the last couple of years; but since 
we weren't at that stage yet, it was premature. The tasks that are really 
needed: going through and writing definitions and place structures for new 
words that have seen usage, and coming up with better definitions for 
cmavo, we haven't actually had any volunteers that have "demonstrated that 
they can get something accomplished on them".

But publishing the current dictionary files in print, is far more than we 
can afford. If publishing Nick's books increases our revenue stream, that 
could change in a year or two.

We could talk about publishing a set of materials on CD-ROM, but my 
understanding is that CD-ROM dictionaries are already becoming passe 
because on-line lookup is more convenient for those who need convenience, 
and the download time for the current file is quite short.

> > >-ideas to improve my order fulfillment record (including possibly seeking
> > >an order fulfillment service, that would fill our orders, typically for
> > >dollar or two per book)
>
>How about going to Kinko's, and seeing how much they charge to print the
>book?
>
>Then, when the LLG gets an order, they guesstimate who (from a list of
>volunteers) is closest to the person ordering the text, and email the
>order on to them. They go to Kinko's, or use the printer at work, or
>whatever they want to do, print the thing off, get it comb bound (either
>done themselves with equipment from office depot, or have kinko's do it),
>and then mail it off USPS book rate. They email back to the LLG the
>actual cost of getting the book sent off, and LLG sends them those funds
>via, say, paypal. Parties wishing to make smallish donations could then
>quote the LLG for a smaller actual cost or not charge the LLG, etc.
>
>And if they don't ACK the book request within a week or something, the
>LLG can inquire as to the status, if it isn't satisfied by the response,
>they can then tell the person to stop trying to fufill the order, wait
>a day, and then send the order out to the next person.

Honestly that all sounds like more work than what I do now %^) The 
bookkeeping would be horrible (and keeping track of the paper work is one 
thing that slows me down), and comb-bound Kinko's would be far more 
expensive than offset.

About 1/3 of our CLL orders come from Amazon, which insists on UPS 
shipment, and 1/3 from overseas, which no longer has a book rate (indeed 
the shipping rate for CLL, both domestic and foreign, will have to rise 
because of the last postal increase).

>As far as fufilling orders for the CLL, again, locate a few trustworthy
>volunteers. Ship them, say, 10 copies of the book.

This is basically what I did with Colin Fine in England. He bought 10 
copies, and many orders from the UK, I refer to him because he can get them 
the book faster and probably cheaper than I will. But I have preferred to 
handle it with him being a retail reseller, and LLG (that is lojbab) 
doesn't do the order management for him.

If it were merely a matter of sending out the books, I would prepackage 40 
books and send them when the orders come in. It's the paperwork, and the 
specific rules needed to satisfy various booksellers that want a receipt 
with order number, or multiple books in an order shipped in one box.

>Open a Fedex account.

Isn't Fedex a good deal more expensive than even UPS, much less book rate 
postage? We are getting $5 for shipping, and packing envelopes cost around 
a buck. We lose money shipping amazon orders, since the UPS for them is 
$6-8 for one book. We lose even more on airmail to Australia, which for 
LLG was around $25 the last time I sent one.

> > >-reflecting on the latter, ways to respond to snail mail correspondence
> > >regarding Lojban that does not give an email, given that we do not have
> > >anything current which is fit to send out (8 year old brochures seem
> > >passe, especially since most people who hear of us did so via the
> > >Internet, and thus have probably seen it). Right now, such 
> correspondence
> > >gets filed for "someday" which means that people have not gotten response
> > >for years. I think this needs to change, but I don't think I will
> > >suddenly improve in this regard. Ideas welcome.
>
>Get a list of local volunteers, who, again, will print off some stuff,
>and mail it back to the person, including their own snail mail address,
>and a note saying that they're willing to answer questions, or correspond
>with the person in/about Lojban via snailmail. Then all the LLG needs to
>do is email off the person's snailmail address, and a rough description
>of what the person was requesting.
>
>(And possibly authorize such volunteers to use LLG letterhead.)

That sounds reasonable to me. The question is whether there will be 
volunteers who will dependably follow through. We've had a history of 
people signing up for things and not actually doing them. Robin has 
restored my faith that someone can follow through on a commitment, as has 
Nick despite severe competition for his time (but Nick has always been good 
at follow through). You've also done a lot, as has xod, though mostly 
things you have chosen to do rather than "assignments" from the LLG "to do" 
list. We need those independent activities, which help show that Lojban is 
more than LLG.

-- 
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org