Subject: Re: [lojban] pedagogy and lojban

From: Robert LeChevalier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:06:36 -0400

At 03:06 PM 8/2/02 +0200, G. Dyke wrote:
>You think I should just start with words like 'tavla' (which have very easy
>pronunciation) and introduce the rest of the pronunciation later?? It is
>true that one of the big problems of teaching Lojban is that the usual: {coi
>mi'e greg .i doi ma} is not really possible: my student was Nicolas
>(/niko'la/), which has no last consonnant and a forbidden morpheme.

It has a rather obvious consonant ending based on the spelling; you aren't 
required to solely use the oral pronunciation in Lojbanizing. And I should 
think that the name would remain quite recognizable with the final vowel 
changed to y or e.

But I think that you don't need to teach students how to Lojbanize their 
names at the beginning, if they are difficult. Just do it for them, and 
say that when they've learned the pronunciation and word-formation rules 
they may choose to change it.

>The only drill you used as an example can be easily taught to any SAE
>speaker. I'm not all that sure that similar methods can be applied for
>Lojban if we are to avoid people speaking "malropno lojbau". It uses
>people's ingrained language patterns to assimilate the structure of a new,
>but similar, language. This is an obvious example of sapir-whorf as to
>native language patterns influencing foreign language patterns.

The obvious pattern that is very Lojbanic, while still having a counterpart 
to SAE languages, is to use substitution drills based on "ma". Pick up a 
pencil: "mi bevri ma". Pick up a piece of paper "mi bevri ma". Hand it to 
the student "do bevri ma". etc. Switch it around with se "ma se bevri 
do". Command him to put it on the table. You can also do drills on 
numbering and order and positioning, using several objects placed in order 
on a table:
ma zunle lamji le cukta
ma cimoi [le porsi be le zunle selkancu]

Figuring out how to do these in text is difficult; in live teaching it is 
much easier.

>To lojbab : you said you were making this project officially supported. What
>exactly?

I am leaving it up to the people who choose to work on it to define their 
own task and pick a leader who will be responsible for giving the LLG Board 
a report every few months. The idea of official projects is NOT that I or 
the Board is going to tell people what to do, but rather that we will 
officially acknowledge that people are doing things, provide web space, and 
support people being able to contact and volunteer to help out.

If I or someone on the Board has an idea for a project, we may call for 
volunteers, and we may make suggestions on how to go about it, but this 
remains a volunteer effort, and the last thing I intend to do is be even 
the slightest bit dictatorial about how volunteers spend their time (that 
being one of the gripes that came between JCB and me in the old Loglan days).

>I personnally would like to have a better idea of what to introduce
>when, but I'm not sure my approach will really be what you are after ; I
>definately don't go with the "drill stuff", and "fun and games" are beyond
>my imagination. I'm wanting (at the moment) to teach as 'a grammar',
>introducing concepts at the right time and not as 'a communication', giving
>means to communicate quickly. I'm especially worried with problems like
>{cu}, which I regularly forget, because of prosumti being the first sumti
>taught in the lessons (and they didn't require a cu). What I'm aiming for is
>something which doesn't confuse the heck out of people as much as I was when
>I started (I didn't find the lessons at first).

Well, if I had all the answers, there would be a completed official 
textbook. Exercises, drills, and readings were what I was completely 
unable to compose to my own standards, and my own standards are by no means 
based on expertise in teaching.

lojbab

-- 
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org