From a-rosta@alphaphe.com Sun Aug 11 11:05:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: a-rosta@alphaphe.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 11 Aug 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 7712 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.alphaphe.net) (217.33.150.223) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 4448 invoked by uid 101); 11 Aug 2002 18:05:33 -0000 Received: from host62-7-164-188.webport.bt.net (HELO oemcomputer) (62.7.164.188) by smtp.alphaphe.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 2002 18:05:33 -0000 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] space tenses Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:07:05 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: X-EDATA: smtp.alphaphe.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AlphaPhe.Net (www.alphaphe.net) From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110020381 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Jorge: > I can't say how common that usage is. I don't think people use > it that much, and I discourage it as much as I can, but it has > been the official interpretation, and there are even examples > in the Book: {mi klama le zarci pu'o le nu mi citka} is > interpreted as {mi klama le zarci ca le nu mi pu'o citka} > instead of as {mi pu'o klama le zarci ca le nu mi citka}. > As you say, the blurb tends to force that interpretation, > but it is a weird usage if you analyze it carefully. Can you explain? I've tried not to learn or think about the tense system, because I dislike it so much, but naively I would gloss these thus: {mi klama le zarci pu'o le nu mi citka} I go to the shop in the runup to my eating. {mi klama le zarci ca le nu mi pu'o citka} I go to the shop at the time of the runup to my eating. {mi pu'o klama le zarci ca le nu mi citka}. It is the runup to my going, at the time of my eating, to the store. Hence my naive glossing reflects the usage you consider erroneous. Oh, I see: the issue is whether pu'o means "runup to" or "inchoative" or "until", since all 3 are different but equally sanctioned by the ma'oste, just like ba'o (aftermath v. since v. perfective). > >As usual, when xorxes isn't unlojbanic, he is right -- and > >often when he at first seems unlojbanic as well. [I have the distinct > >feeling that I have been on the wrong side of this issue in the past but > >can't find the cases at the moment; > > The most intense discussions on this, as I remember, I had with > Lojbab, and they were before you joined the list, and also before > the Book was published. Obviously I did not manage to convince > him. Nobody manages to convince Lojbab. What convinces Lojbab is when one or more people he esteems get convinced. --And.