From olivera@macs.biu.ac.il Mon Aug 12 05:27:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: olivera@macs.biu.ac.il X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 12:27:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 45820 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 12:27:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 12:27:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 12:27:29 -0000 Received: from 66-108-97-101.nyc.rr.com ([66.108.97.101] helo=avitallap) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17eEID-0007AA-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 05:27:29 -0700 Message-ID: <016e01c241fb$9b04b950$0200a8c0@avitallap> To: , "Newton, Philip" References: Subject: Re: [lojban] nolraitru Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 07:27:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Avital Oliver" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60925700 X-Yahoo-Profile: mivmai Heh. nolraitru might be my most hated lujvo (after cakcinki perhaps (Hi Adam)). But, interstingly, not for the reasons you just specified. The immediate answer is - nolraitru originates from the tanru "nobli ----- Original Message ----- From: "Newton, Philip" To: Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:03 AM Subject: [lojban] nolraitru > How would you expand "nolraitru" (meaning "king") into a tanru? > > The obvious "nobli traji turni" doesn't make sense to me, since that is > "(nobli traji) turni", i.e. "(noble type-of superlative) type-of governor". > > I would have expected either "nobli ke traji turni" = "nobli (traji turni)" > = "noble type-of (superlative type-of governor)" or "traji nobli turni" = > "(traji nobli) turni" = "(superlative type-of noble) type-of governor". > > (Incidentally, is it possible to express "traji nobli turni" with the word > order "nobli traji turni" by using cmavo? I tried "nobli co traji turni", > intending "(nobli co traji) turni" but the co attached not the "traji" but > the whole "traji turni" to the "nobli". And "ke nobli co traji ke'e turni" > was rejected by jbofi'e as ungrammatical.) > > Two plausible explanations come to my mind: > > (1) The Lojban idiom for "most broda" may not be "traji broda" as English, > but "broda traji". > > "Most interesting" seems to be to be "superlatively interesting", but Lojban > might well have it as "interestingly superlative", emphasising the fact that > it is superlative and using the modifier to indicate in what the > superlativity(?) lies, rather than indicating that something is interesting > and using the modifier to indicate the superlative degree. > > In this case, "nobli traji turni" would parse idiomatically as > "superlatively-noble governor", which makes sense to me. > > (2) lujvo need not expand to the most obvious tanru, so that "nolraitru" > means not necessarily "nobli traji turni" but "something to do with nobli, > and traji, and turni (unordered(?))". Is that so? I seem to recall reading > somewhere that lujvo were a bit free as to how things were expressed -- for > example, that one could leave out things such as "ke", "ke'e", "nu", ... if > the result is "logical" as a lujvo. > > > Is either of those explanations correct? If not, how is "nolraitru" to be > parsed? > > mu'omi'e filip. > [email copies appreciated, since I read the digest] > {ko fukpi mrilu .i'o fi mi ki'u le du'u mi te mrilu loi notseljmaji} > -- > Philip Newton > All opinions are my own, not my employer's. > If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >