Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: fu'ivla with lujvo as rafsi?

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:42:20 +0000

la filip cusku di'e

> > >Is it possible to make type III fu'ivla using lujvo stems as
> > >pseudo-rafsi?
> >
> > The stem has to be a consonant ending rafsi. Anything else
> > can cause trouble.
>
>Can you explain to me why this is?

A consonant-ending-rafsi + r(/n/l) + consonant-starting-borrowing
cannot break. This is because r/n/l cannot start an initial cluster,
so the first syllable of the rafsi will never fall off, and also
a three consonant combination with a non initial cluster
cannot be part of a lujvo.

On the other hand, the sometimes mentioned form {djarspageti}
{dja-r-spageti} for example, cannot be generalized. Consider
{dja-r-pitsa}. It fails the slinku'i test: {ci djarpitsa}
can be understood as the lujvo form {cid-jar-pitsa}.

> > In any case, the stem has to end in a consonant and the
> > lojbanized borrowing has to start with a consonant
>
>Why is this? (Because the rules for making fu'ivla say so? Or because
>otherwise words break up?)

The rules say so because otherwise words break up for some
forms of the borrowing. There are some borrowings that will
work with other stems, but these rules guarantee that any
borrowing will give a valid fu'ivla.

>In particular, ISTR having read that in some circumstances, it's OK if the
>borrowed bit starts with a vowel, though I don't recall the details 
>(perhaps
>when the rafsi ending + glue is already crunchy enough?).

Three consonants the last of which is 'r' are very rarely
crunchy enough, as most Cr are valid initials. The
only exceptions I think are jr, zr, nr and lr. So I guess
you could say that rafsi of the form CVCj, CVCz, CVCn or CVCl
can take borrowings that start with a vowel, also rafsi of
the form CVCr or CVCm by adding n, and maybe some others, but
it seems to me that it is not worth complicating the rules
that much. On the other hand, the rules are such a piece of
arcana already that an additional complication can't be all
that harmful.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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