Subject: kau -- What does it really mean?!

From: "Avital Oliver" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:04:08 -0500

coi doi jbopre

PRE-DISCLAIMER: What I'm saying here is thoughts I've been having, and they
are definately not finalized, thus I don't really know what I think. Please
help me before I go crazy! Ahhh!@@

I'm sure this has been discussed many times, and the only reason I'm not
searching the archives now (or searching HOW to search the archives) is that
I'm on a flight right now.

I've heard different people consider the meaning of 'kau' to be different. A
main issue is that different meanings of 'kau' give different meanings to
other words, like 'ni', 'ka', and the meaning of different constructions.

Let me begin with a quote from The Book (C) [pg. 265]:
"It is actually not necessary to use "le du'u" and "kau" at all if the
indirect question involves a sumti"

Given with the quote is the example "mi djuno le du'u makau pu klama le
zarci", which is supposedly paraphrasable into "mi djuno le pu klama be le
zarci". I find this statement very strange. The meaning I understand of "le
du'u makau ..." is not the walker, but the fact that he is the walker (thus
the "le du'u" -- why would "le du'u" be used if we are not speaking of
knowing any fact?). The akwardness is also manifested in the way the bridi
is paraphrased -- into the x3 place of djuno instead of x2. How would "mi
nelci le du'u makal pu klama le zarci" be paraphrased? Into "mi nelci le pu
klama be le zarci"? Why is "nelci" different than "djuno"?

DISCLAIMER: The main person that shaped my understanding of the meaning of
"kau" is Adam Raizen. Therefore, all my misusage is to be blamed on him =).

I understand that "le klama" and "le du'u makau klama" are *very* different
things. If John goes, then by saying "mi nelci le klama", I mean that I like
John, and by saying "mi nelci ledu'u makau klama", I mean that I like that
fact that John goes, or more precisely, I like it that it is John who goes.

Now, the question is, using this interpretation of "kau", how would I
discuss possible answers to questions which aren't sumti? For example, how
would I say "The number of people is large", other than "le prenu cu
so'imei" -- A construct similar to "le xokau prenu cu barda", but that would
be nonsence, since the fact that there are N people can not be large. One
might suggest using sets, which I have some disagreements with (both
considering Jorge's ban on sets, and xod's thoughts, saying that a set is
not large -- it's cardinality is large). But this doesn't matter. What I'd
expect there to exist is something similar to a cmavo, that we shall call
"kaui", that can be used instead of "kau", but instead of creating a sumti
meaning "the fact that ...", we would just get the answer. Thus, I could
say: "le du'u xokaui prenu cu barda". Some people have suggested using "ni"
instead of my "ledu'u xokaui", but that's not what I understand of "ni". I
understand that "leni blanu" means blueness. The same people would say that
"blueness" is "leka blanu", which I disagree with, but this is not part of
this discussion.

Consider another example -- "The logical connective between the senteces "I
go" and "I talk" is useful". I would say this as "ledu'u mi klama gi'ikaui
tavla cu selpli". How else would this be said? Using "kau" would be
incorrect, and you'd have to create strange constructions to get this using
simple bridi.

The main problem with what I'm saying here, of course, is, since "ledu'u
xokaui ..." is a number rather than a sumti, and "ledu'u ... gi'ikaui ..."
is a bridi logical connective rather than a sumti, how could I put them into
a sumti place in a bridi? If 3 people walk and I say "ledu'u xokaui klama cu
barda" does this mean "li ci cu barda"? How would the "li" get in there?

Since I just realized I'm totally confused as to what I really want, I'll
just ask two questions:
a) What is the relation between "le klama" and "ledu'u makau klama"? xod
suggested that it is something similar to a lu'e/la'e connection - "ledu'u
makau klama" is actually a reference to the actual walker. This seems
interesting, but something seems missing in this explanation.
b) What is so special about "djuno" that you can say "mi djuno ledu'u makau
klama", but different in "blanu" making "ledu'u makau klama cu blanu"
completely meaningless? Is there a certain (small) set of gismu with which
you can use "ledu'u ..kau" as opposed to others? Should this be
well-defined?

Thanks for helping me out,
My battery is almost over,
Goddamn this stupid thinkpad -- It claimed I had 3 hours of battery, but
after an hour and a half (or less) it is about to die on me,
Goddamnit,
Avital.